Another chance to catch our semi-regular tour of the Florida/Capital City Market-
Explore Florida Market/Capital City Market
Saturday 9 - 11 am
Meet outside New York Avenue Metro station (Florida Avenue exit)
End at Litteri’s Italian Deli, 517 Morse Street, NE
The Florida Market is the city’s major wholesale food distribution center. The tour will stop at restaurants and vendors, including the DC Farmers Market building, and address development issues such as increased demand for urban living. Led by Richard Layman and presented by Citizens Planning Coalition, Frozen Tropics weblog, and Rebuilding Place in the Urban Space weblog.
You can also meet us at 8am at Young's for Korean/Salvadorian food.
18 comments:
Everyone should take the tour then come out to the Festival!
will we get a preview of what the market is going to be?
like, where new buildings will be located? and what parts they will be cleaning up? which "stores" are going to finally go?
if so, i may attend.
Johnson, considering that no concrete plans have ever been put forth, such a tour would be impossible.
Never taken this tour sounds like fun, but I have a PSA 504 Meeting to attend. However, pershaps when the development happens, and it will, there could be a before and after photo shoot. Before showing the blight I grew to hate as a child and then come back and show the beauty of a well planned mixed use welcoming development.
I think we need to keep some Disney magic, were once was swamp could be the Magic Kingdom, where once was garbage could become gold.
Thank you Johnson for suggesting such a thing.
Are you going to let everyone know how to get in contact with their Councilmembers to make sure that there is additional input from all stakeholders about the future of the Market and the changes proposed to the New Town Legislation. A tour is great, but what methods are you proposing to get the ear of our Council members who make the final decisions on the whether the Market is going to be historically perserved or become another mini mall with a Target?
anon 11:40,
You don't read this blog much, do you?
A Target,no A Crate and Barrel, Pottery Barn William Sonoma, Best Cellars, Restoration, Waterworks and other mid to high end stores would be great. It will stop me from spending all my money in VA.
no, robby, no.
we like the tours and we like the crap that currently exists.
this is, after all, DC.
we need to preserve the last vestige of crap that we have.
it's important...... to 8 people.
Do not feed the trolls.
Ah yes, Mr. Richard Layman. The guy who lives in Maryland and has no background in architecture or urban planning yet tries to pass himself off as a DC Historic Preservationist...
Thanks for the tour, Inked! It was fun and informative (and I found a great source for Middle Eastern supplies)!
For 1.5 of the 21 years I've lived in the region, I _lived_ in MD. I live in Ward 4.
And while I guess I haven't fooled you, fortunately others feel differently, and I get paid as a consultant in the commercial district revitalization field writing revitalization and retail plans. But you're right that at the present, I do not have a degree in urban planning.
Robby might be shocked to read the suggested retail plan I wrote for the Florida Market. It doesn't mention stores like Restoration Hardware because I think pushing that level of homewares is a stretch for that location, although it does mention World Market, CB/CB2, and the new Design Within Reach concept, among others.
Mr. Layman: I don't believe I've ever met you, and it would be nice to one day. I think the area needs a decent level of housewares, high end specialty food, high end art and retail. I see many Capitol Hill people deep in VA and MD spending tons o Cash on that stuff. If we could develop the right environment the District could keep that sales tax for itself. It's years off, but we are in the fight of our retail lives.
Before I get attacked, I am not a regional Planner either. My profession/educational pedigree is Public Administration with a focus in local government and management consulting.
It personally bothers me that we don't have more, yet we don't and while I liked that new crap they put in Columbia heights, I don't want it here. I want this to be like 14th street between P and U, but better. That took years, I remember when the only thriving business there was the Barrel house and Mid City fish, and the Crew Club.
-Robby
Robby,
Why does it have to be high end? I've been managing "high-end" retail for ten years. My conclusion: people want high end in DC, but don't really want to shop in DC. You can ask any retailer who has a shop in DC proper and a location in say Tyson's Corner which store does better business, the answer will always be VA. Add to that the extreme cost of entry for any business, and high end retail would rather stay out in the suburbs, at least around here.
No, I think as slowly as this area is growing, attracting mid-income retail is a safer bet. I could see CB2, as Mr. Layman pointed out, doing better in our region than an original Crate and Barrel. I was appalled when Maxx Inc put a A.J. Wright in Brentwood instead of a TJ Maxx, but if you have ever been in there on a Saturday, you can see it was a smart decision for them.
Well, it's even trickier than 8th and el makes it out to be. It's not that people don't want to shop in DC, but it's fair to say that the people with choices prefer to shop in NW DC or in the suburbs. (I have an old blog entry that you should look up called "Store Siting Decisions.")
And it's not whether you ("Robby" et al) spend money in these stores but whether or not there is the demand of say 300,000 people to shop in these stores, in NE DC, not NW. (Lots of people in SE DC still shop in Alexandria... even though there is a Home Depot in DC. They just take the SE-SW freeway to Potomac Yards.)
To get an idea of the numbers of people required to support thriving retail... H Street including Hechinger Mall has about 1 million s.f.
It takes 20,000 to 30,000 people to support a neighborhood shopping center of _50,000_ s.f.
So to have totally kicking retail in all that space, you need 400,000 to 600,000 regular patrons. That's roughly the entire population, certainly with money, of the City of Washington.
It's not like Joe Englert's places thrive Sunday-Wednesdays... etc.
So yes, I do criticize plans to makeover a place like Florida Market when to me it makes sense to direct new retail investments to extant places, in order to strengthen, rather than weaken, those places.
And it makes sense to strengthen and extend the orientation of Florida Market, rather than make it over, and add even more retail space to a city that has plenty and keeps adding more, i.e., what 200,000 to 300,000 s.f. is coming to the Old Convention Center site + the new Rhode Island station development + McMillan Reservoir + AFRH + more downtown developments, etc.
Given that, a place like Restoration Hardware, which has almost no offerings in the food (kitchen) arena, is a real stretch, at least for the Florida Market area. Etc.
Retailers, except for Design Within Reach and to some extent Urban Outfitters (which owns Anthropologie and a couple other smaller chains), are not comfortable with pushing boundaries. And speaking of old blog entries, look up "why the future of urban retail isn't chains" in my blog as well.
The reasoning behind the things I say is laid out in my writings, and is based on analysis that unfortunately, tends to elude most urban planners, whether or not they have advanced degrees (or degrees in allied fields).
Go to a session of the Intl. Council of Shopping Centers or the Urban Land Institute and you'll see what I mean. People who make money in this business don't want to lose money. So they are conservative and careful in their decision-making.
Excellent, thoughtful posts and analysis Richard, as always. Thank you for posting!
Gina A., Master of Urban Planning, UVA
Mr. Layman:
I'm not sure how to respond. On one level I feel kicked in the teeth for speaking. The response was not meant to be high handed, but really that's the way it read. I'm not responding out of emotion, but instead of actually making me want to engage, your response feels like I am being told to shut up and sit in the corner.
There's got to be a better way to both communicate this and to implement this. While I am no expert in this field. I don't think people just prefer NW because it's somehow better. There are many factors there. Any my dream would be to over a period of years have to shift some of that cache over here.
I don't think it's impossible. I work a block from Nationals Park. I remember what was there 4 years ago. Change can happen.
It's possible to support higher end retail here. It is. And even if we fall short shouldn't we aim for the best. Why aim for plastic forks and chicken joints when we could have places to be proud of.
I am really tired of being told to settle for ghetto stores, carry outs, and other places unfit for MC, Farifax, Dulles etc.
I have to contend with crime, and jerks, and all kinds of stuff. I shouldn't be expected to live in hell while heaven exists in the Golden Triangle, NOMA, Downtown, or GWTN.
So, while you have your reasons, I only hear you saying no, and then beating your chest about your writtings. I hear you saying, "that's not happening here and never will." I can't believe that this will all ways be the hell that is, and I refuse to accept that.
There were hookers where there are now premier shops at gallery place. F Street was Peep show ville.
Things change and not by people aiming low.
So yes, I am gunning for little Tyson's, Bethesda Row style place here. Because frankly, I deserve it. We all do.
There are ways to incubate large business development. To that end I wish the EOM well in there efforts. Because the residents of Ward 5 deserve more than a poorly designed Home Depot complex, and a failing Hechinger Mall.
And before you or any one decides to take shots at me, here's my e-mail address write me directly robbycu (at) yahoo.com.
-Robby
Hey, all I said was that Restoration Hardware, for a variety of reasons, is a stretch.
I don't think that's taking shots. I don't think that we're arguing from that much different a position. Like you, all I want is a better place to live, work, play, and visit. I want every block of the city to be great.
But we parse things much differently. E.g., F Street, with the Downtown BID, and hundreds of thousands of daytime visitors and workers, has a chance to attract different retail. So for me, I don't use F Street as an example for say H St. or the Florida Market, as the conditions which support revitalization are different. Although that doesn't mean we can't learn from it!
And the Stadium area, again, completely different. Major major "reproduction of space" first generated by the moving of Navy functions from Crystal City to the Navy Yard (and note that I would argue that M Street SE is gross and will never be much, because the people employed in the buildings don't care too much about spending time or money in DC) and then by the stadium.
Note that the stadium was supposed to go to NY and FL Avenues, but Andy Altman figured that locating it on the river would jumpstart revitalization of the Anacostia (which will still take 20+ years).
I'd argue that creating a stadium area from scratch will be and is a lot harder than most people think, much different from places like Fenway and Wrigleyville...
Most of the time wrt the points I make, it's directed to the point that if you want the kind of retail you say you want, you're going to have to create it with independent retailers, because national chains don't have much interest or appreciation for areas that aren't A locations, especially in center cities. (I've spent 7 years learning this.)
So have complete incentive and technical assistance plans to attract and develop independents paired with high quality retail plans.
Otherwise, you're going to have to wait a long long time. And even longer with the kinds of renewal plans proposed by the likes of the Chois/Rays/Thomas'.
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