Hi inked! I sent an email to the hotmail account listed on this site. It is regarding an H Street 'crime walk' that I organized with Tommy Wells and MPD this friday Dec 11th. Do you think it would be possible to post a quick ad on FT? Trying to get as many neighbors out as possible. Thanks so much!
Your math is flawed. Cost of $250,000 per year includes round trips. The shuttle goes to Chinatown and comes back to Atlas. $250,000 the total cost of operating the shuttle to-and-fro from Chinatown.
i still think we need more fish taco options on h street. is there anyway we could figure out how to connect the shuttle with fish tacos? i think we could have a winner here!
Sorry about that...I posted without having had my morning coffee.
You're right. It cost $6.94 per person per trip, including round trip and one-way trip passengers.
Still, that's a lot more than paying X2 fare. Why doesn't the city work with WMATA to cut the number of X2 bus stops in half so that it only stops every two blocks or so, thereby increasing efficiency and encouraging ridership?
I can't wait to tell my local homeless about the free shuttle! Just think, they can avoid the hassles of hauling their shopping carts onto a packed X2! And even better, no transfer check!
I can't wait for the hipsters who apparently "can't" afford the $1.35 bus/metro fare to their $120 dinner at Granville Moore's to rub elbows with people who really can't afford $1.35! How enlightening it will be for them.
Instead of wasting $250k on a redundant service for 36,000 of the most entitled brats outside of The Hills, I wholehearted support PooPoo's "Bus to TacoVille". It can start on H and go to Taco Alley over in Edmundston. Now there is a service I can really get behind. Especially if we can strap a portojohn on to the back of the bus...
P.S. For the un-enlightened NW hipsters desperate for a can of crappy beer, the 9x buses run straight through Adams Morgan, U street, down Florida Ave to 8th st. Then it's just a short walk to your PBR!
I can't wait for the hipsters who apparently "can't" afford the $1.35 bus/metro fare to their $120 dinner at Granville Moore's to rub elbows with people who really can't afford $1.35!
Heh. Childish resentment and jealousy are so gauche!
It use to be entertaining and imformative to read everyone's comments on this blog but the ugliness that's become the norm in recent months has caused a huge increase in my painkiller consumption. Please find another hobby besides spewing this pessimistic blather. Being this negative and hateful is extremely bad for your health. We wouldn't want you to stroke out due to high blood pressure and then blame H st and it's businesses for causing your medical problems.
Oh for heaven's sakes. The shuttle didn't exist to benefit the strawman "hipsters" Mr. Washington and Mr. Poo are so fond of conjuring up. There are a zillion popular places to go out and party in the DC area -- trust me, the demographic you're taking such joy in mocking had no problems finding places to play before coming to H Street. They don't care whether the Shuttle exists at all, since if (rightly or wrongly) they perceive getting to the bars on H as a pain or inconvenient or whatever, there's a zillion other places to go. The shuttle's nonexistence wouldn't slow them down in the slightest. "Entitled brats"? There's no demonstration of a sense of entitlement here -- they don't care if the Shuttle exists. The Shuttle doesn't exist to help them out.
The Shuttle has existed to help out the H Street bar owners -- to make it easier to entice these people to party here, rather than in Adams Morgan, U Street, Clarendon, the Penn Quarter, or wherever else they would otherwise go. You wanna argue that it's not of sufficient benefit to H Street businesses (and then indirectly to the neighborhood or the city) to be worthy of the price tag? I dunno whether you're right or not, but that's at least a sensible claim. But unless you have some evidence that "hipsters" were the ones calling the Council demanding the Shuttle be restored because they wouldn't know how to get out of their apartments otherwise, suggesting that the Shuttle is being restored simply to mollify some "entitled brats" is goofy.
if your position is correct that the shuttle service exists to help the business owners on H, isn't this the ideal case for a public/private partnership where costs are shared? even if it were only the atlas, h street playhouse, and the venues from 12th to 15th, once they split up their share of the 125 K, they'd probably only owe $12,500 apiece/year. that's a little over a grand a month. I think if they get the lion's share of the benefit, they should help with the cost. Although, conversely, they employ people and add to the tax base themselves, but the benefit seems aimed at a narrow set of stakeholders who run for-profit enterprises...
poopy, when you were in watford did you support the local football team there or did all the advanced degrees you always speak of leave you thinking english football was too boorish. or did the scads of money you make lead you to like a glamour club like chelsea? i'm sure there were a lot of similarities and some vast differences between running a place in watford and a bar on h street ( the amount of ice in a drink). on a more serious note, do you know the tax rate businesses besides bars and restaurants pay in dc? does the barber who lets hipsters grow those annoying beards pay the same 10 per cent tax as i do? i may be able to respond to some of the questions about the cost of the shuttle if i know those percentages. tonyt the pug
some_more_math: Maybe, yes. I haven't seen any figures on what the District makes off the people who take the Shuttle; but we can guess using the numbers given earlier in this discussion. $6.94/passenger was the amount given. For the District to break even, the passenger needs to pay that amount in restaurant taxes, so needs to spend ~$70 + tax + tip. That's an oversimplification obviously; but I'd bet the average customer doesn't come anywhere close to that. So on that basis, having the H Street businesses share in the cost makes sense to me.
OTOH, I suppose there's an argument to be made that the District subsidizing the Shuttle is an investment in improving an area, like neighborhood-based tax breaks etc. When looked at that way, I guess the questions become whether there are better ways to use that money to improve the neighborhood, or whether there are better ways to use that money _period_, without regard to the neighborhood (even if possibly detrimental to the neighborhood). I haven't a clue about any of these questions -- I don't even know enough to have an opinion. Other people here probably do (Richard Layman, if he's reading?).
Mr. Poo: Sorry, my apologies. When you replied to Mr. Washington's post with "PURE.GENIUS", I thought you were complimenting his post. I presume you're saying that you simply meant to compliment a small portion of his post.
poo poo hasn't answered my question, so i am not one hundred percent sure what i'm going to say is accurate. i do know that bars and restaurants pay 10 per cent tax on sales every month and i believe that most other businesses pay a lower rate. so it could be said that the sales and use tax the bars and restaurants on h pay cover the shuttle. the shuttle was started to help ease parking concerns and crowding concerns with the streetscape work. arguments about the x 2 versus the free shuttle are valid but really beside the point. old town started a trolley to serve people taking the water taxi from national harbor. i'm sure there is existing public transit in old town but the more options for transit, the better. if for nothing else than clearing space for parking. i'm not sure how many drinkers at the pug ride the shuttle, but i know it brings people to the neighborhood and if we can get more visitors without more cars, i can't see too many drawbacks even if it is hipsters, or preppies, or people who think bon jovi rocks, as long as they don't ask for a car bomb. tonyt the pug
ha! i'm sure there are vast differences between bars in england and the u.s. i mean, i know there are. yes, bars pay higher taxes (that is true for all the bars in dc - the ones on H, the ones in georgetown, the ones on 8th st., adams morgan,etc.) but the reason for that is that they usually have higher profit margins than say... a barber. no? i'm not sure how many of them have shuttles to their areas, but i guess if i think about it, you're right. the more transportation options, the better. having said that, i know money is hard to come by, and i have to say that if the shuttle *had* to go away, it would likely be that those moneys would go elswhere, no? i'd like to think they might end up back in the DC economy and that can't be such a bad thing for local businesses, can it? i say that with a pretty firm belief that the shuttle plays a pretty minor role in bringing "the crowds" to h street. a lot of folks don't even know about the shuttle, let alone its hours etc. if it is going to be funded and fully utilized, more flyers need to be spread around, or ... something.
car bomb? bailey's, guinness, and jameson. no? by golly, i think i'll have two!
This does sound like a lot of money for a shuttle, until you compare it to, say, the cost of incarcerating, what, two of H Street's many thugs for a year?
Or the cost of two or three useless city employee salaries for a year.
Or the cost of a couple of crime-infested cyclical-poverty-producing public housing units for a year.
I hope all of you naysayers get run over by the shuttle. Geeze...go back to Virginia!
You all are the most negative bunch of gentrifiers I've ever seen. You NIMBY putzes couldn't afford half of the houses you live in now because of all that the new businesses on H are doing, tax revenue they're generating, jobs they're creating, and revitalization they're starting.
You like living in the hood? Go east of the river. Sure, lots of city buses there, but they go nowhere.
Quit complaining, lighten up, enjoy what you have!
Seriously...every freakin' week you same group of doltzes get on here and harp about one ridiculous thing or another! Get a damn life! Enjoy the area, enjoy what it's becoming, and enjoy the fact that your lazy asses haven't had to sink your own business investment into this and can just sit back and reap the rewards!
OTOH, I suppose there's an argument to be made that the District subsidizing the Shuttle is an investment in improving an area, like neighborhood-based tax breaks etc. When looked at that way, I guess the questions become whether there are better ways to use that money to improve the neighborhood, or whether there are better ways to use that money _period_, without regard to the neighborhood (even if possibly detrimental to the neighborhood).
But the answers aren't cut and dried. Yes, you can argue that the investment in the shuttle helps strengthen a developing commercial district.
Or you can argue that it duplicates service and that the money could be spent differently.
While the latter happens to be my analysis. It happens on this issue, reasonable people can disagree.
But if you do look at it strictly from the standpoint of transportation only, then yes, it is a waste.
And because there are limited funds generally and many competitors for such funds, it makes the most sense to identify the most important investments, with the highest ROI, and spend the money accordingly.
Probably, on that basis, $250K could do other stuff "more better" to support the H Street business district.
And again, although I've argued this in one form or another since 2002, create a transportation management district and coordinate all transportation issues--including shared parking lots opportunities such as Autozone.
24 comments:
This is great......I enjoy the venues on H street and the free shuttle is an added bonus because parking is really bad.
Quit trying to park on the Trolley Tracks!
Hi inked! I sent an email to the hotmail account listed on this site. It is regarding an H Street 'crime walk' that I organized with Tommy Wells and MPD this friday Dec 11th. Do you think it would be possible to post a quick ad on FT? Trying to get as many neighbors out as possible. Thanks so much!
($250,000/year to operate) / (36,000 passengers/year) = $6.94 per one-way trip.
That's over $13 per person for two one-way trips for an evening on H Street.
NOTE: $250k & ridership numbers provided by Tommy Well's Chief of Staff and H Street Business Cooperative, respectively.
Anon. 10:14:
You just calculated the cost per passenger (based on this years ridership total) NOT the cost per trip.
Please think your math through before posting.
We may allow trolling, crank posts, and crazy opinions on this blog...but Bad Math will not be tolerated.
Your math is flawed. Cost of $250,000 per year includes round trips. The shuttle goes to Chinatown and comes back to Atlas. $250,000 the total cost of operating the shuttle to-and-fro from Chinatown.
i still think we need more fish taco options on h street. is there anyway we could figure out how to connect the shuttle with fish tacos? i think we could have a winner here!
Sorry about that...I posted without having had my morning coffee.
You're right. It cost $6.94 per person per trip, including round trip and one-way trip passengers.
Still, that's a lot more than paying X2 fare. Why doesn't the city work with WMATA to cut the number of X2 bus stops in half so that it only stops every two blocks or so, thereby increasing efficiency and encouraging ridership?
I can't wait to tell my local homeless about the free shuttle! Just think, they can avoid the hassles of hauling their shopping carts onto a packed X2! And even better, no transfer check!
I can't wait for the hipsters who apparently "can't" afford the $1.35 bus/metro fare to their $120 dinner at Granville Moore's to rub elbows with people who really can't afford $1.35! How enlightening it will be for them.
Instead of wasting $250k on a redundant service for 36,000 of the most entitled brats outside of The Hills, I wholehearted support PooPoo's "Bus to TacoVille". It can start on H and go to Taco Alley over in Edmundston. Now there is a service I can really get behind. Especially if we can strap a portojohn on to the back of the bus...
P.S. For the un-enlightened NW hipsters desperate for a can of crappy beer, the 9x buses run straight through Adams Morgan, U street, down Florida Ave to 8th st. Then it's just a short walk to your PBR!
I can't wait for the hipsters who apparently "can't" afford the $1.35 bus/metro fare to their $120 dinner at Granville Moore's to rub elbows with people who really can't afford $1.35!
Heh. Childish resentment and jealousy are so gauche!
irving washington:
PURE.GENIUS.
watchya back, joe englert! tacos gonna take you down!
It use to be entertaining and imformative to read everyone's comments on this blog but the ugliness that's become the norm in recent months has caused a huge increase in my painkiller consumption. Please find another hobby besides spewing this pessimistic blather. Being this negative and hateful is extremely bad for your health. We wouldn't want you to stroke out due to high blood pressure and then blame H st and it's businesses for causing your medical problems.
Oh for heaven's sakes. The shuttle didn't exist to benefit the strawman "hipsters" Mr. Washington and Mr. Poo are so fond of conjuring up. There are a zillion popular places to go out and party in the DC area -- trust me, the demographic you're taking such joy in mocking had no problems finding places to play before coming to H Street. They don't care whether the Shuttle exists at all, since if (rightly or wrongly) they perceive getting to the bars on H as a pain or inconvenient or whatever, there's a zillion other places to go. The shuttle's nonexistence wouldn't slow them down in the slightest. "Entitled brats"? There's no demonstration of a sense of entitlement here -- they don't care if the Shuttle exists. The Shuttle doesn't exist to help them out.
The Shuttle has existed to help out the H Street bar owners -- to make it easier to entice these people to party here, rather than in Adams Morgan, U Street, Clarendon, the Penn Quarter, or wherever else they would otherwise go. You wanna argue that it's not of sufficient benefit to H Street businesses (and then indirectly to the neighborhood or the city) to be worthy of the price tag? I dunno whether you're right or not, but that's at least a sensible claim. But unless you have some evidence that "hipsters" were the ones calling the Council demanding the Shuttle be restored because they wouldn't know how to get out of their apartments otherwise, suggesting that the Shuttle is being restored simply to mollify some "entitled brats" is goofy.
Would it kill them to add a stop in the back of Union Station? It would make the shuttle a lot more convenient for folks on the hill.
curmudgeon,
if your position is correct that the shuttle service exists to help the business owners on H, isn't this the ideal case for a public/private partnership where costs are shared? even if it were only the atlas, h street playhouse, and the venues from 12th to 15th, once they split up their share of the 125 K, they'd probably only owe $12,500 apiece/year. that's a little over a grand a month. I think if they get the lion's share of the benefit, they should help with the cost. Although, conversely, they employ people and add to the tax base themselves, but the benefit seems aimed at a narrow set of stakeholders who run for-profit enterprises...
for the record, dr. carmudgeon,
i'm not specifically targetting "hipsters". read the posts again and engage in some serious head exercise.
thanks in advance.
poopy, when you were in watford did you support the local football team there or did all the advanced degrees you always speak of leave you thinking english football was too boorish. or did the scads of money you make lead you to like a glamour club like chelsea? i'm sure there were a lot of similarities and some vast differences between running a place in watford and a bar on h street ( the amount of ice in a drink). on a more serious note, do you know the tax rate businesses besides bars and restaurants pay in dc? does the barber who lets hipsters grow those annoying beards pay the same 10 per cent tax as i do? i may be able to respond to some of the questions about the cost of the shuttle if i know those percentages.
tonyt
the pug
some_more_math: Maybe, yes. I haven't seen any figures on what the District makes off the people who take the Shuttle; but we can guess using the numbers given earlier in this discussion. $6.94/passenger was the amount given. For the District to break even, the passenger needs to pay that amount in restaurant taxes, so needs to spend ~$70 + tax + tip. That's an oversimplification obviously; but I'd bet the average customer doesn't come anywhere close to that. So on that basis, having the H Street businesses share in the cost makes sense to me.
OTOH, I suppose there's an argument to be made that the District subsidizing the Shuttle is an investment in improving an area, like neighborhood-based tax breaks etc. When looked at that way, I guess the questions become whether there are better ways to use that money to improve the neighborhood, or whether there are better ways to use that money _period_, without regard to the neighborhood (even if possibly detrimental to the neighborhood). I haven't a clue about any of these questions -- I don't even know enough to have an opinion. Other people here probably do (Richard Layman, if he's reading?).
Mr. Poo: Sorry, my apologies. When you replied to Mr. Washington's post with "PURE.GENIUS", I thought you were complimenting his post. I presume you're saying that you simply meant to compliment a small portion of his post.
Did I do OK with the head exercise?
poo poo hasn't answered my question, so i am not one hundred percent sure what i'm going to say is accurate. i do know that bars and restaurants pay 10 per cent tax on sales every month and i believe that most other businesses pay a lower rate. so it could be said that the sales and use tax the bars and restaurants on h pay cover the shuttle. the shuttle was started to help ease parking concerns and crowding concerns with the streetscape work. arguments about the x 2 versus the free shuttle are valid but really beside the point. old town started a trolley to serve people taking the water taxi from national harbor. i'm sure there is existing public transit in old town but the more options for transit, the better. if for nothing else than clearing space for parking. i'm not sure how many drinkers at the pug ride the shuttle, but i know it brings people to the neighborhood and if we can get more visitors without more cars, i can't see too many drawbacks even if it is hipsters, or preppies, or people who think bon jovi rocks, as long as they don't ask for a car bomb.
tonyt
the pug
ha! i'm sure there are vast differences between bars in england and the u.s. i mean, i know there are. yes, bars pay higher taxes (that is true for all the bars in dc - the ones on H, the ones in georgetown, the ones on 8th st., adams morgan,etc.) but the reason for that is that they usually have higher profit margins than say... a barber. no? i'm not sure how many of them have shuttles to their areas, but i guess if i think about it, you're right. the more transportation options, the better. having said that, i know money is hard to come by, and i have to say that if the shuttle *had* to go away, it would likely be that those moneys would go elswhere, no? i'd like to think they might end up back in the DC economy and that can't be such a bad thing for local businesses, can it? i say that with a pretty firm belief that the shuttle plays a pretty minor role in bringing "the crowds" to h street. a lot of folks don't even know about the shuttle, let alone its hours etc. if it is going to be funded and fully utilized, more flyers need to be spread around, or ... something.
car bomb? bailey's, guinness, and jameson. no? by golly, i think i'll have two!
This does sound like a lot of money for a shuttle, until you compare it to, say, the cost of incarcerating, what, two of H Street's many thugs for a year?
Or the cost of two or three useless city employee salaries for a year.
Or the cost of a couple of crime-infested cyclical-poverty-producing public housing units for a year.
I hope all of you naysayers get run over by the shuttle. Geeze...go back to Virginia!
You all are the most negative bunch of gentrifiers I've ever seen. You NIMBY putzes couldn't afford half of the houses you live in now because of all that the new businesses on H are doing, tax revenue they're generating, jobs they're creating, and revitalization they're starting.
You like living in the hood? Go east of the river. Sure, lots of city buses there, but they go nowhere.
Quit complaining, lighten up, enjoy what you have!
Seriously...every freakin' week you same group of doltzes get on here and harp about one ridiculous thing or another! Get a damn life! Enjoy the area, enjoy what it's becoming, and enjoy the fact that your lazy asses haven't had to sink your own business investment into this and can just sit back and reap the rewards!
curmudgeon -- you ask the right questions.
OTOH, I suppose there's an argument to be made that the District subsidizing the Shuttle is an investment in improving an area, like neighborhood-based tax breaks etc. When looked at that way, I guess the questions become whether there are better ways to use that money to improve the neighborhood, or whether there are better ways to use that money _period_, without regard to the neighborhood (even if possibly detrimental to the neighborhood).
But the answers aren't cut and dried. Yes, you can argue that the investment in the shuttle helps strengthen a developing commercial district.
Or you can argue that it duplicates service and that the money could be spent differently.
While the latter happens to be my analysis. It happens on this issue, reasonable people can disagree.
But if you do look at it strictly from the standpoint of transportation only, then yes, it is a waste.
And because there are limited funds generally and many competitors for such funds, it makes the most sense to identify the most important investments, with the highest ROI, and spend the money accordingly.
Probably, on that basis, $250K could do other stuff "more better" to support the H Street business district.
And again, although I've argued this in one form or another since 2002, create a transportation management district and coordinate all transportation issues--including shared parking lots opportunities such as Autozone.
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