Streetcars are expensive, & I can understand why one might ask questions about any high price plan. I think streetcars are worth it for the same reason that streetscape improvements are worth it. Both of these projects will attract both neighborhood residents & people from outside the neighborhood. I think that both proects will enhance H street's prospects and mak it more attractive to potential business owners. Lookk at R&B for example. Alphonso actually decided to open R&B before he even knew about the Atlas & other projects. I like R&B Coffee a lot & I think it is a wonderful addition to H Street. But what chance could a business like R&B have without the increased foot traffic on H Street over the past few years? Even now, R&B, though its business is increasing, doesn't have the volume of sales to comfortably offer evening hours (which I think would not be the case if it were closer to a metro station). Consider the distance between R&B & the nearest metro station. Yes, R&B is accessible by bus (a bus I take everyday), but there are problems with buses. Many people view the buses as undependable, or unpleasant. Many others simply don't know the routes and are unlikely to take a bus route to a neighborhood with which they are unfamiliar. People want conveniance & reliability (even if a metrotrain is delayed the station is a concrete reminder that a train will ultimately appear). I think streetcars can work the same way. I believe that people are much more likely to travel down H Street on a streetcar than on the X2. Plus, streetcars can likely help us to mitigate parking problems in the future. So even though streetcars come with a high price tag, I think the benefits will be worth it.
I totally agree with your reasoning and am a huge supporter of improving streetscapes. My concern is that folks who want to come to H Street locations like R&B will have to take a metro to Union Station then a trolley to H and 14th.
I think that is asking alot and assume a pretty well motivated consumer. Considering that 8th & H is the busiest bus intersection in the City why not an investment in a metro stop.
I realize that is far more expensive, but thinking long term, would be amazing for the area.
Don't get me wrong. I like the idea of the light rail and will definately use it myself but I think the H Street area may be getting its 15 minutes here and don't want to see it mis-spent.
I don't think the funds are there for a metro stop. That would also mean years of digging. The only reason that the NY Ave station opened so quickly is because it was an infill station (i.e. the tracks were already there). The fact that visitors may have to take the metro & then switch to the streetcars is an issue. I think you might be able to beat this one with branding. Riding above the ground & watching everything go by is bit of a plus for a business strip like H Street could be. I also wish metro were a more expansive system (I really the tube in London), but streetcars are a nice alternative. Another point you hit is that this is a lot to expect of a visitor to a place like R&B Coffee. The key is that this person won't have to just visit R&B. He will have lots of other places to go on the H Corridor that will make it worth his trip. These new places may not be open yet, but they'll come.
Implementation is everything in this case. I think we tend to have a rosy picture of streetcars because of (a) nostalgia and (b) our experiences overseas or in other cities. But imagine if the streetcar runs not every 5 minutes (like in most European cities I've seen) but every, say, 25 minutes, like a metrobus. Now imagine that the streetcar (when it finally arrives) is filled with loud teenagers yelling profanity. Hmmm... not such an attractive idea anymore.
The metrobuses on H Street actually provide frequent service. Nonetheless, the ability to derive substantive additional benefit (ROI) from the investment is significant. Ironically, this is presaged by the testimony by Northeast DC Business Association members in 1948!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! about why they were against the abandonment of the 10/12 line on H St. (Some of this testimony is reprinted in Kohler's book on the streetcars; I have not as of yet sought out the PSC testimony files.)
The idea of people coming via subway to H street is initially unlikely. But Streetcars as a transportation alternative and more attractive streets will attract more of the people who live both north and south of H street and further away from Union Station to start going to H street for transportation and shopping. As of right now only a fraction of those particularly south of H go there.
Here is a question? Why not link the H Street rails up with the Northwest side? Imagine expanding the Galery place availability to H street. That would certainly draw a larger audience to H street, NE.
As a new resident to the area, I just wanted to add my two cents.
I agree that there will be some difficulties in making H Street a "desination" area as envisaged by Joe Englert if people have to switch from metro to a street car.
However, there are literally millions of square feet of office space and condos going up in the strip between Union Station and New York Avenue, on both sides of the tracks, that are set for delivery between 2006-2010. The street car will make businesses on H Street a lot more accessible to the thousands of new and existing residents and employees in this area, and could help make the competitive with downtown and Gallery Place for these people. It would also make all the people who work in the area, but don't live there, a lot more comfortable knowing that they have an easy way to get back to Union Station to their cars or metro connections if they're out later on at night.
By the way, I should have my blog up and running soon, but for now, I have to just be anonymous.
What will happen to the streetcars when traffic is congested on H Street? Today, buses can change lanes to avoid double parked cars and slow traffic. But streetcars don't have that option. How do other cities solve this problem? And how is UPS/FedEx going to deliver merchandize along H Street if they can't double park in front of the stores?
This is a controversial comment, admittedly, but is anyone concerned that there are going to be more riders on the trolleys heading toward Union Station from Anacostia than there are heading from Union Station to the H Street destination? Could that be an unintended consequence of the new system?
1. The streetcar line will run from the Minnesota Ave Station to Union Station. The Minn Ave Station is located in what the c ity is going to refer to as "Central Northeast," but I'm going to consider part of Benning (but maybe my concept of neighborhood boundaries is off, so correct me if you like). Basically, the station is way north & east of Anacostia. Actually, it it much closer to Deanwood than to Anacostia. I know that there is a tendancy to use Anacostia as a catchall name for everything on the other side of the river, but that's a bit of a pet peeve (because I associate it somewhat with the people who regard all portions outside of DC's upper northwest as some kind of diseased wastelend).
2. To get back to the point, the streetcar will run the same route as the X2. If both the streetcar & the bus are running concurrently (and it sounds like they may be), I suspect that people headed to work will probably take whichever mode of transport seems faster & more reliable.
3. I'm going to assume that your concerns relate to the noise issue raised above (teenagers watching movies at Union Station?), & the fear that the streetcars won't do as much to attract people to H Street as we hope. I'll say that I think noise can always be an issue, but that reducing the crowding can only help. I'm sure that people will probably use the streetcars going both directions. I don't really see why it would be a bad thing to have people from Benning traveling on the streetcar (it sounds like you might think it is when you say "unintended consequence," but maybe I'm misreading). First, we already have people from from Benning traveling down H Street to Union Station. Maybe you are afraid that they'll be more likely to skip shopping on H Street & head straight to Union Station? If this is your fear, I wouldn't worry because I think that streetcars are very conducive to disembarking, walking around, & then getting back on. Isn't the entire point of public transport to transport the public? I think improving transportation in underserved areas is generally a good thing.
all this fear has got to come to a stop. noise? are you SERIOUS? you live in a CITY. noise is part of living in a city. what exactly are you afraid of, REALLY? there are rambunctious kids making noise when there's a hockey game at mci arena. should they not have opened the MCI arena? come on people....pull yourselves together.
No, I am not in any way concerned about "those" people coming into "our" neighborhood. We're all god's children. We all have to learn to share our world with respect for one another.
(Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now.)
But back to my question posted earlier about traffic congestion. The streetcar lines aren't going to run down the middle of the street unless the City has changed it's plans recently. From what I've seen the tracks will run on the lane adjacent to the parking lane. Passengers will board using curb bump-outs. Therefore, double parking problems are a real possibility. Furthermore, these changes are intended to foster economic development, which means that deliveries will become more likely and more frequent.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea. Just that we have to anticipate these problems and get the city to take the steps to fix them before they occur.
It's called, serious towing and fines. $500 doesn't seem that much to me, maybe it could be $1,000. Granted that there is a great deal more civility in Portland, but I never experienced double parking as a problem impinging on the movement of the streetcar.
If you put in a serious fine regime, and have for a bit a tow truck hanging around if necessary to seize cars, people will change their behaviors, fast.
Alleys exist for deliveries. Why can't the trucks use the alleys to deliver to the stores? That is what they are used for in other cities and indeed, part of what they are intended for.
18 comments:
too cool.
How will the Street Cars be good for H Street.
What is the benefit? Couldn't those millions be put to better use.
I am not against it, I am just curious as to why this is a good investment if it only mirrors the bus route.
Streetcars are expensive, & I can understand why one might ask questions about any high price plan. I think streetcars are worth it for the same reason that streetscape improvements are worth it. Both of these projects will attract both neighborhood residents & people from outside the neighborhood. I think that both proects will enhance H street's prospects and mak it more attractive to potential business owners. Lookk at R&B for example. Alphonso actually decided to open R&B before he even knew about the Atlas & other projects. I like R&B Coffee a lot & I think it is a wonderful addition to H Street. But what chance could a business like R&B have without the increased foot traffic on H Street over the past few years? Even now, R&B, though its business is increasing, doesn't have the volume of sales to comfortably offer evening hours (which I think would not be the case if it were closer to a metro station). Consider the distance between R&B & the nearest metro station. Yes, R&B is accessible by bus (a bus I take everyday), but there are problems with buses. Many people view the buses as undependable, or unpleasant. Many others simply don't know the routes and are unlikely to take a bus route to a neighborhood with which they are unfamiliar. People want conveniance & reliability (even if a metrotrain is delayed the station is a concrete reminder that a train will ultimately appear). I think streetcars can work the same way. I believe that people are much more likely to travel down H Street on a streetcar than on the X2. Plus, streetcars can likely help us to mitigate parking problems in the future. So even though streetcars come with a high price tag, I think the benefits will be worth it.
I totally agree with your reasoning and am a huge supporter of improving streetscapes. My concern is that folks who want to come to H Street locations like R&B will have to take a metro to Union Station then a trolley to H and 14th.
I think that is asking alot and assume a pretty well motivated consumer. Considering that 8th & H is the busiest bus intersection in the City why not an investment in a metro stop.
I realize that is far more expensive, but thinking long term, would be amazing for the area.
Don't get me wrong. I like the idea of the light rail and will definately use it myself but I think the H Street area may be getting its 15 minutes here and don't want to see it mis-spent.
I don't think the funds are there for a metro stop. That would also mean years of digging. The only reason that the NY Ave station opened so quickly is because it was an infill station (i.e. the tracks were already there). The fact that visitors may have to take the metro & then switch to the streetcars is an issue. I think you might be able to beat this one with branding. Riding above the ground & watching everything go by is bit of a plus for a business strip like H Street could be. I also wish metro were a more expansive system (I really the tube in London), but streetcars are a nice alternative. Another point you hit is that this is a lot to expect of a visitor to a place like R&B Coffee. The key is that this person won't have to just visit R&B. He will have lots of other places to go on the H Corridor that will make it worth his trip. These new places may not be open yet, but they'll come.
Implementation is everything in this case. I think we tend to have a rosy picture of streetcars because of (a) nostalgia and (b) our experiences overseas or in other cities. But imagine if the streetcar runs not every 5 minutes (like in most European cities I've seen) but every, say, 25 minutes, like a metrobus. Now imagine that the streetcar (when it finally arrives) is filled with loud teenagers yelling profanity. Hmmm... not such an attractive idea anymore.
The metrobuses on H Street actually provide frequent service. Nonetheless, the ability to derive substantive additional benefit (ROI) from the investment is significant. Ironically, this is presaged by the testimony by Northeast DC Business Association members in 1948!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! about why they were against the abandonment of the 10/12 line on H St. (Some of this testimony is reprinted in Kohler's book on the streetcars; I have not as of yet sought out the PSC testimony files.)
Anyway, I'm not gonna write any more about why this is a good thing. Instead, I ask you to do reading yourself. I recommend these two items to start: the "Bring Back the Streetcars" report on the APTA website; as well as this illustrated article about the Portland Streetcar system.
and then if you want read the great textbook about transportation generally, Geography of Urban Transportation.
As an engaged citizen, you have a responsibility too, it's not enough to just spout off in a blog.
The idea of people coming via subway to H street is initially unlikely. But Streetcars as a transportation alternative and more attractive streets will attract more of the people who live both north and south of H street and further away from Union Station to start going to H street for transportation and shopping. As of right now only a fraction of those particularly south of H go there.
Here is a question? Why not link the H Street rails up with the Northwest side? Imagine expanding the Galery place availability to H street. That would certainly draw a larger audience to H street, NE.
As a new resident to the area, I just wanted to add my two cents.
I agree that there will be some difficulties in making H Street a "desination" area as envisaged by Joe Englert if people have to switch from metro to a street car.
However, there are literally millions of square feet of office space and condos going up in the strip between Union Station and New York Avenue, on both sides of the tracks, that are set for delivery between 2006-2010. The street car will make businesses on H Street a lot more accessible to the thousands of new and existing residents and employees in this area, and could help make the competitive with downtown and Gallery Place for these people. It would also make all the people who work in the area, but don't live there, a lot more comfortable knowing that they have an easy way to get back to Union Station to their cars or metro connections if they're out later on at night.
By the way, I should have my blog up and running soon, but for now, I have to just be anonymous.
What will happen to the streetcars when traffic is congested on H Street? Today, buses can change lanes to avoid double parked cars and slow traffic. But streetcars don't have that option. How do other cities solve this problem? And how is UPS/FedEx going to deliver merchandize along H Street if they can't double park in front of the stores?
This is a controversial comment, admittedly, but is anyone concerned that there are going to be more riders on the trolleys heading toward Union Station from Anacostia than there are heading from Union Station to the H Street destination? Could that be an unintended consequence of the new system?
A couple of thoughts:
1. The streetcar line will run from the Minnesota Ave Station to Union Station. The Minn Ave Station is located in what the c ity is going to refer to as "Central Northeast," but I'm going to consider part of Benning (but maybe my concept of neighborhood boundaries is off, so correct me if you like). Basically, the station is way north & east of Anacostia. Actually, it it much closer to Deanwood than to Anacostia. I know that there is a tendancy to use Anacostia as a catchall name for everything on the other side of the river, but that's a bit of a pet peeve (because I associate it somewhat with the people who regard all portions outside of DC's upper northwest as some kind of diseased wastelend).
2. To get back to the point, the streetcar will run the same route as the X2. If both the streetcar & the bus are running concurrently (and it sounds like they may be), I suspect that people headed to work will probably take whichever mode of transport seems faster & more reliable.
3. I'm going to assume that your concerns relate to the noise issue raised above (teenagers watching movies at Union Station?), & the fear that the streetcars won't do as much to attract people to H Street as we hope. I'll say that I think noise can always be an issue, but that reducing the crowding can only help. I'm sure that people will probably use the streetcars going both directions. I don't really see why it would be a bad thing to have people from Benning traveling on the streetcar (it sounds like you might think it is when you say "unintended consequence," but maybe I'm misreading). First, we already have people from from Benning traveling down H Street to Union Station. Maybe you are afraid that they'll be more likely to skip shopping on H Street & head straight to Union Station? If this is your fear, I wouldn't worry because I think that streetcars are very conducive to disembarking, walking around, & then getting back on. Isn't the entire point of public transport to transport the public? I think improving transportation in underserved areas is generally a good thing.
all this fear has got to come to a stop. noise? are you SERIOUS? you live in a CITY. noise is part of living in a city. what exactly are you afraid of, REALLY? there are rambunctious kids making noise when there's a hockey game at mci arena. should they not have opened the MCI arena? come on people....pull yourselves together.
No, I am not in any way concerned about "those" people coming into "our" neighborhood. We're all god's children. We all have to learn to share our world with respect for one another.
(Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now.)
But back to my question posted earlier about traffic congestion. The streetcar lines aren't going to run down the middle of the street unless the City has changed it's plans recently. From what I've seen the tracks will run on the lane adjacent to the parking lane. Passengers will board using curb bump-outs. Therefore, double parking problems are a real possibility. Furthermore, these changes are intended to foster economic development, which means that deliveries will become more likely and more frequent.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea. Just that we have to anticipate these problems and get the city to take the steps to fix them before they occur.
It's called, serious towing and fines. $500 doesn't seem that much to me, maybe it could be $1,000. Granted that there is a great deal more civility in Portland, but I never experienced double parking as a problem impinging on the movement of the streetcar.
If you put in a serious fine regime, and have for a bit a tow truck hanging around if necessary to seize cars, people will change their behaviors, fast.
But Richard what about the deliveries?
Alleys exist for deliveries. Why can't the trucks use the alleys to deliver to the stores? That is what they are used for in other cities and indeed, part of what they are intended for.
Post a Comment