Excuse the rant please, but this has been bothering me for a while...
Where do establishments on outer H Street get off charging the prices they do? I really liked Palace of Wonders, but an 8 buck cover to see someone swallow swords at a bar that doesn't have anything on tap and couldn't make the first two drinks I asked for because they didn't have the ingredients?
And the Argonaut, our friendly neighborhood dive charging $8.50 for a burger? I could get one cheaper at Big Hunt, 150 feet from Dupont Circle. Does Mr. Englert not realize that he's surrounded by check cashing outlets and carryout establishments?
I really like most of the establishments of H, but how do the owners expect to draw people to the corridor if it already costs as much as it's much more established and refined competitors. And I don't even want H to become Dupont, I like it a little raw around the edges, but I'm not going to go out of my way to support a local bar when it's trying to fleece me.
Until the Argonaut and Showbar, and Red & Black wise up, you'll find me R&B (whence I write right now) or at The Ohio, where tasty food and drink can be had at a reasonable price. Oh, and by the way, Joe, it's usually got a lot more people in it than your spots.
I agree. While I support the new establishments, it's pretty absurd to charge $5 for a bottle of beer on H St., and knowing Joe's other establishments, I was disappointed to see no drafts at the Show Bar and the Rad and the Black. Me thinks it has to do with Joe buying up all those properties, being a bit cash poor, and then having to fix up the bars on the cheap.
Have to agree with the rant about the Palace of Wonders. A group of friends went for drinks after work, to check it out. After we had been there for an hour, someone came upstairs and announced that we would either have to pay $8 for the show or leave the bar! We of course left and probably won't go back! I have never been to a bar where they make people pay or leave if they came in before the cover started. And I think $8 for a sword swallower is a bit much.
The reason why the Lucky Bar can't charge the steep prices of the H Street bars is because people would go elsewhere. On H Street, where else are you going to go? You'll have to suck it up until the free market forces come into play on H Street! Consider those steep prices a bit of a charitable contribution for the good of the corridor.
I would just like to say that the prices on Hst are no higher than anywhere else you would go in D.C. Every establishment bases its prices on what other establishments our doing in the District. What people forget to realize is that a $5.00 beer(import) or an $8.50 burger is not profit!! you have to figure in Rent, cost of goods, prep time, payroll, normal utility bills-which are much higher for bars and restaraunts, trash removal and the list goes on! I do believe that the cover charge is a bit much but I also believe that a $12-$15 dollar martini is obsurd!
Hello, kind folks of H St. I would like to thank you for the overwhelming positive comments, thoughts and wishes about our places opened and about to open.
About cover charges: they will be cheaper most of the time. We will also fashion a "regulars" card which should get good patrons in for free or a discount on any given night.
I am all for cheap or free cover charges. Look for them in the future.
By the way, we did have 99 people pay that cover and there was 7 hours out of 10 out of the night in which you could entered the palace for FREE
Drink prices: you have not paid attention when you go out lately if you are balking at $5 for a beer. And the reason we serve no draft is lack of storage space for kegs. It is very hard to find big spaces on H. If we could serve draft, we could. But a case of decent beer costs $24 or more--we must charge at least $5 to make ANY money. You must make 5 times off any drink in the business to make money.
When it comes to food at Argonaut--we cost things at 4 times what ingredients cost.
Okay--we are over$2.10 to make a burger. That means, yes it costs over $8.50 for me to make a penny on this sandwich.
Also--let's give you a quick economics lesson on bars/restaurants
You must make 10 times your rent/mortgage to make a dime.
My mortgage at Argo is $4000. Yes, I have to make $40,000 a month before I make a penny.
So far in 10 months, we have yet to hit this mark. Only by the grace of God and the patience of Job by employees holding paychecks and being very forgiving have we survived.
Of course, we will do well and prosper. But please, know the facts before you start making assumptions. We plan menus so 99% of the items are under $10. You can still come to any of our places, have 2-3 beers and dinner for under $20. Still a good deal in 2006 Washington
We have a lot of work to do on H before we get good to great at each individual place. We will get better.
No one is ever expected to pay for a bad drink or bad food. Please always voice your displeasure to a manager or employee. It is much more effective than hiding behind anonymous on a website. You paid for it, you deserve satisfaction.
I/we deserve to be kept honest and good. But think how anybody would feel if I criticized their law work, writing, art work, GC work, architectural work, etc (all subpar services I paid for this year) on the internet and named them by name? Of course, it your right. And I welcome ALL the feedback. Make us better, please.
Anyway, 99% of the neighbors on H are great. Like I have said, we have a supreme duty to be clean, neat, quiet and law-abiding. Hopefully, we will make most of you happy when it comes to drinking and eating, too.
And won't it be a pleasure when enough places are open on H that there is more to concentrate on then the mistakes/misjudgements/policies of just 2 or three places???
Thanks again for the very happy and solid openings. We really appreciate ALL the feedback
While, having worked at many small restaurants, I understand the difficulties of making a profit in this business, especially in a developing corridor, the point of my post was entirely missed. Beer is a pretty elastic good, and though my study of economics didn't make it past the elementary level, it's not terribly difficult to realize that high prices don't necessarily translate into high profits.
If you can't make a profit selling a bottle of beer for five bucks deep on H street, how do numerous establishments sell bottles of beer for much less near Dupont, where I can only imagine mortgages are far higher than the 4k monthly that the Argonaut faces? I work two blocks from Dupont, go out regularly, and am able to drink for the same, if not less, than were I to come out to H, where I live. This isn't logical.
I would love to go eat dinner at the Argonaut. And yet I could get a burger for two bucks less at the sickeningly preppy bar on the corner next to my office. I can't imagine that ingredients are any less expensive in NW DC.
Now, I understand the no kegs issue, it's unfortunate, but if you don't have space, you don't have space. But if I can get beer cheaper, in a more expensive area, something in your logic doesn't hold. And given, I'm not the one in the bar business, but I'm probably just as likely to drink four beers at $5 a pop as I am to drink 5 beers at $4 a pop. Yeah, the profit's one dollar less, but the marginal likelihood of me buying a snack from you (and I know you're making a good margin on the mixed nuts, nachos, and popcorn at The Palace) increases with every beer I drink.
And the reports of people who came in before the cover started being asked to leave if they didn't want to pony up? I have never heard of such a policy in any bar, and that's seriously bad business which needs to be rethought.
Basically (although it's hard to organize one's thoughts in this miniscule comments window), I know that I, my roommates, and my friends in the neighborhood would all like to spend more time at these H Street establishments, all of which I genuinely like, but we're not willing to pay more to go out here. Nor should we be asked to.
Take the smaller margins. The greater volume will make up for it.
Oh, and as for your jab about anonymity, you can find me at kmharwin@gmail.com
Final thoughts upon review: To the first anon poster, note the Red and Black is actually not one of Joe's, but by the DC9 folks.
To Joe & Co - It seems a bit presumptuous to tell me that I'm not paying attention when I go out lately. If I wasn't on a budget, I wouldn't care so much about your prices. I'll be happy to furnish a list of under $5 bottles in NW DC.
As owner of the Lucky Bar, I am fully aware that our prices there are more--usually from 50 cents to $2.oo per drink--than any place on H Street.
As far as cover charges being charged after people were present at Show Bar, this was a wrong move by the staff and won't be repeated. There will be a much more cohesive policy (usually set dates with a noted cover) and open dates when people will know that there is no cover all night.
Ultimately though, it is a matter of choice on frequenting any bar. And if we can't please every one because of prices, menu, entertainment so be it. We would like to have everybody be a customer, but that is in a perfect world. As far as other establishments on H, other than those affiliated with us being busy, that is fantastic. It is a big street and lots of room for everybody to profit. That what makes the free enterprise system great. I pray that H streeters have even more options in the future.
Thanks for all the thoughts and opinions--Joe Englert
But a) there are daily specials on food and/or drinks every day at the Argonaut. As said before $20 goes a long way there.
b) Look for food and drink specials at red and black and showbar, too. We are not out to gouge anybody.
c) No offense meant kerry about the anonymous stuff. It is just very weird (and I know I must get used to it in this-blogcentric world) to be criticized and debated with at will or critiqued without context being supplied.
Any way, thanks for all the interest and though you don't have to give us a second chance, please try. We will always strive to improve and make as many people as possible happy.
Many thanks for your comments, Joe and Staff, but I had a question brought up on another post that no one seemed to answer: Is the Olympic still in the works? I see all your other future bars mentioned, and I was just a bit curious.
Who ever complains about paying $5 and $8.50 for a hamburger should just go somewhere else. You have to know you aren't paying for just the food - you're paying for service and atmosphere. You're supporting a local establishment that is there to serve you - if it's good, if it's nice to hang out there, then it's worth it. Suck it up or go somewhere else. Eat at home or order one less drink. Spend the money you save on cheaper drinks and food at the places in Dupont on the gas/bus/metro to get there. I'm sure that's logical to you. I don't want you at my favorite H Street places anyway! Keep up the good work Joe!
Despite all my bitching, I don't intend to spit any vitriol, I like what you're doing here, and I'm glad things are happening. I'm just put off by the contrast between the crackheads and check-cashing and the drink prices.
I think that more specials Showbar will be a great move, also, extending the hours of specials at Argonaut might be a good idea since most people can't come here straight from work, like they might at a bar downtown, so a later happy hour could be appropriate. A large percentage of my drinking is done at happy hours, but by the time I get home to H, it's too late.
I think we've probably taken up enough space on Elise's blog, but is there any sort of other venue in which community members could make comments or suggestions on your establishments?
It's fascinating to read Joe E's comments here. I've been checking out all the new places and commenting to my friends that the cash burn rate must be astounding and wondering where the startup capital came for all these places. I agree w/ one of the last comments...thanks Joe for putting these places on H St. If the Anons above don't like the prices they should go elsewhere rather than rant...the market at work.
Sorry to join the discussion late (been on vacation), but I'd like to voice strong support for the Englert projects, especially the Argonaut. We especially love Monday night half-price burger night, where you can get one of the best burgers in town as well as those amazing sweet potato fries. I have commented several times to friends about how it must be hard to make a profit while the neighborhood is still being established as a "go to spot." I'd rather pay $2 for a beer, but if I have to choose between going cheap and supporting a local business, I'll pay $5 every time.
Joe Englert & staff, I just started a nightlife tour bus company and I would love to take my groups to your new places on H street. We stop at 4 bars in 4 different neighborhoods and stay for an hour at each. Is there any way for me to get in touch with you? Thanks, Nikki web- www.ridetheboomerang.com email- nikki@ridetheboomerang.com
20 comments:
Any more information available on this? Their website still doesn't seem to be up...
They had a woman doing "regular" sword swallowing and a guy swallowing glowing swords. That's based on what they told us outside.
Excuse the rant please, but this has been bothering me for a while...
Where do establishments on outer H Street get off charging the prices they do? I really liked Palace of Wonders, but an 8 buck cover to see someone swallow swords at a bar that doesn't have anything on tap and couldn't make the first two drinks I asked for because they didn't have the ingredients?
And the Argonaut, our friendly neighborhood dive charging $8.50 for a burger? I could get one cheaper at Big Hunt, 150 feet from Dupont Circle. Does Mr. Englert not realize that he's surrounded by check cashing outlets and carryout establishments?
I really like most of the establishments of H, but how do the owners expect to draw people to the corridor if it already costs as much as it's much more established and refined competitors. And I don't even want H to become Dupont, I like it a little raw around the edges, but I'm not going to go out of my way to support a local bar when it's trying to fleece me.
Until the Argonaut and Showbar, and Red & Black wise up, you'll find me R&B (whence I write right now) or at The Ohio, where tasty food and drink can be had at a reasonable price. Oh, and by the way, Joe, it's usually got a lot more people in it than your spots.
I agree. While I support the new establishments, it's pretty absurd to charge $5 for a bottle of beer on H St., and knowing Joe's other establishments, I was disappointed to see no drafts at the Show Bar and the Rad and the Black. Me thinks it has to do with Joe buying up all those properties, being a bit cash poor, and then having to fix up the bars on the cheap.
Have to agree with the rant about the Palace of Wonders. A group of friends went for drinks after work, to check it out. After we had been there for an hour, someone came upstairs and announced that we would either have to pay $8 for the show or leave the bar!
We of course left and probably won't go back! I have never been to a bar where they make people pay or leave if they came in before the cover started. And I think $8 for a sword swallower is a bit much.
The reason why the Lucky Bar can't charge the steep prices of the H Street bars is because people would go elsewhere. On H Street, where else are you going to go? You'll have to suck it up until the free market forces come into play on H Street! Consider those steep prices a bit of a charitable contribution for the good of the corridor.
I would just like to say that the prices on Hst are no higher than anywhere else you would go in D.C. Every establishment bases its prices on what other establishments our doing in the District. What people forget to realize is that a $5.00 beer(import) or an $8.50 burger is not profit!! you have to figure in Rent, cost of goods, prep time, payroll, normal utility bills-which are much higher for bars and restaraunts, trash removal and the list goes on! I do believe that the cover charge is a bit much but I also believe that a $12-$15 dollar martini is obsurd!
Hello, kind folks of H St. I would like to thank you for the overwhelming positive comments, thoughts and wishes about our places opened and about to open.
About cover charges: they will be cheaper most of the time. We will also fashion a "regulars" card which should get good patrons in for free or a discount on any given night.
I am all for cheap or free cover charges. Look for them in the future.
By the way, we did have 99 people pay that cover and there was 7 hours out of 10 out of the night in which you could entered the palace for FREE
Drink prices: you have not paid attention when you go out lately if you are balking at $5 for a beer. And the reason we serve no draft is lack of storage space for kegs. It is very hard to find big spaces on H. If we could serve draft, we could. But a case of decent beer costs $24 or more--we must charge at least $5 to make ANY money. You must make 5 times off any drink in the business to make money.
When it comes to food at Argonaut--we cost things at 4 times what ingredients cost.
Burger 8 oz----75 cents
bun------------40 cents
lettuce---------5 cents
tomato----------10 cents
onion----------- 5 cents
french fries----55 cents
salt---------
ketchup
mustard
mayo------------20 cents
Okay--we are over$2.10 to make a burger. That means, yes it costs over $8.50 for me to make a penny on this sandwich.
Also--let's give you a quick economics lesson on bars/restaurants
You must make 10 times your rent/mortgage to make a dime.
My mortgage at Argo is $4000. Yes, I have to make $40,000 a month before I make a penny.
So far in 10 months, we have yet to hit this mark. Only by the grace of God and the patience of Job by employees holding paychecks and being very forgiving have we survived.
Of course, we will do well and prosper. But please, know the facts before you start making assumptions. We plan menus so 99% of the items are under $10. You can still come to any of our places, have 2-3 beers and dinner for under $20. Still a good deal in 2006 Washington
We have a lot of work to do on H before we get good to great at each individual place. We will get better.
No one is ever expected to pay for a bad drink or bad food. Please always voice your displeasure to a manager or employee. It is much more effective than hiding behind anonymous on a website. You paid for it, you deserve satisfaction.
I/we deserve to be kept honest and good. But think how anybody would feel if I criticized their law work, writing, art work, GC work, architectural work, etc (all subpar services I paid for this year) on the internet and named them by name? Of course, it your right. And I welcome ALL the feedback. Make us better, please.
Anyway, 99% of the neighbors on H are great. Like I have said, we have a supreme duty to be clean, neat, quiet and law-abiding. Hopefully, we will make most of you happy when it comes to drinking and eating, too.
And won't it be a pleasure when enough places are open on H that there is more to concentrate on then the mistakes/misjudgements/policies of just 2 or three places???
Thanks again for the very happy and solid openings. We really appreciate ALL the feedback
THANKS--JOE Englert and staff
Englert & Co -
While, having worked at many small restaurants, I understand the difficulties of making a profit in this business, especially in a developing corridor, the point of my post was entirely missed. Beer is a pretty elastic good, and though my study of economics didn't make it past the elementary level, it's not terribly difficult to realize that high prices don't necessarily translate into high profits.
If you can't make a profit selling a bottle of beer for five bucks deep on H street, how do numerous establishments sell bottles of beer for much less near Dupont, where I can only imagine mortgages are far higher than the 4k monthly that the Argonaut faces? I work two blocks from Dupont, go out regularly, and am able to drink for the same, if not less, than were I to come out to H, where I live. This isn't logical.
I would love to go eat dinner at the Argonaut. And yet I could get a burger for two bucks less at the sickeningly preppy bar on the corner next to my office. I can't imagine that ingredients are any less expensive in NW DC.
Now, I understand the no kegs issue, it's unfortunate, but if you don't have space, you don't have space. But if I can get beer cheaper, in a more expensive area, something in your logic doesn't hold. And given, I'm not the one in the bar business, but I'm probably just as likely to drink four beers at $5 a pop as I am to drink 5 beers at $4 a pop. Yeah, the profit's one dollar less, but the marginal likelihood of me buying a snack from you (and I know you're making a good margin on the mixed nuts, nachos, and popcorn at The Palace) increases with every beer I drink.
And the reports of people who came in before the cover started being asked to leave if they didn't want to pony up? I have never heard of such a policy in any bar, and that's seriously bad business which needs to be rethought.
Basically (although it's hard to organize one's thoughts in this miniscule comments window), I know that I, my roommates, and my friends in the neighborhood would all like to spend more time at these H Street establishments, all of which I genuinely like, but we're not willing to pay more to go out here. Nor should we be asked to.
Take the smaller margins. The greater volume will make up for it.
Oh, and as for your jab about anonymity, you can find me at kmharwin@gmail.com
Final thoughts upon review: To the first anon poster, note the Red and Black is actually not one of Joe's, but by the DC9 folks.
To Joe & Co - It seems a bit presumptuous to tell me that I'm not paying attention when I go out lately. If I wasn't on a budget, I wouldn't care so much about your prices. I'll be happy to furnish a list of under $5 bottles in NW DC.
As owner of the Lucky Bar, I am fully aware that our prices there are more--usually from 50 cents to $2.oo per drink--than any place on H Street.
As far as cover charges being charged after people were present at Show Bar, this was a wrong move by the staff and won't be repeated. There will be a much more cohesive policy (usually set dates with a noted cover) and open dates when people will know that there is no cover all night.
Ultimately though, it is a matter of choice on frequenting any bar. And if we can't please every one because of prices, menu, entertainment so be it. We would like to have everybody be a customer, but that is in a perfect world. As far as other establishments on H, other than those affiliated with us being busy, that is fantastic. It is a big street and lots of room for everybody to profit. That what makes the free enterprise system great. I pray that H streeters have even more options in the future.
Thanks for all the thoughts and opinions--Joe Englert
Sorry for taking up so much room on this blog:
But a) there are daily specials on food and/or drinks every day at the Argonaut. As said before $20 goes a long way there.
b) Look for food and drink specials at red and black and showbar, too. We are not out to gouge anybody.
c) No offense meant kerry about the anonymous stuff. It is just very weird (and I know I must get used to it in this-blogcentric world) to be criticized and debated with at will or critiqued without context being supplied.
Any way, thanks for all the interest and though you don't have to give us a second chance, please try. We will always strive to improve and make as many people as possible happy.
Thanks--Joe Englert and staff
Many thanks for your comments, Joe and Staff, but I had a question brought up on another post that no one seemed to answer: Is the Olympic still in the works? I see all your other future bars mentioned, and I was just a bit curious.
Who ever complains about paying $5 and $8.50 for a hamburger should just go somewhere else. You have to know you aren't paying for just the food - you're paying for service and atmosphere. You're supporting a local establishment that is there to serve you - if it's good, if it's nice to hang out there, then it's worth it. Suck it up or go somewhere else. Eat at home or order one less drink. Spend the money you save on cheaper drinks and food at the places in Dupont on the gas/bus/metro to get there. I'm sure that's logical to you. I don't want you at my favorite H Street places anyway! Keep up the good work Joe!
Joe et al -
Despite all my bitching, I don't intend to spit any vitriol, I like what you're doing here, and I'm glad things are happening. I'm just put off by the contrast between the crackheads and check-cashing and the drink prices.
I think that more specials Showbar will be a great move, also, extending the hours of specials at Argonaut might be a good idea since most people can't come here straight from work, like they might at a bar downtown, so a later happy hour could be appropriate. A large percentage of my drinking is done at happy hours, but by the time I get home to H, it's too late.
I think we've probably taken up enough space on Elise's blog, but is there any sort of other venue in which community members could make comments or suggestions on your establishments?
It's fascinating to read Joe E's comments here. I've been checking out all the new places and commenting to my friends that the cash burn rate must be astounding and wondering where the startup capital came for all these places. I agree w/ one of the last comments...thanks Joe for putting these places on H St. If the Anons above don't like the prices they should go elsewhere rather than rant...the market at work.
Space is there to be taken up and it doesdn't cost a dime, so please feel free to leave as many comments as you like.
Sorry to join the discussion late (been on vacation), but I'd like to voice strong support for the Englert projects, especially the Argonaut. We especially love Monday night half-price burger night, where you can get one of the best burgers in town as well as those amazing sweet potato fries. I have commented several times to friends about how it must be hard to make a profit while the neighborhood is still being established as a "go to spot." I'd rather pay $2 for a beer, but if I have to choose between going cheap and supporting a local business, I'll pay $5 every time.
anybody know if there are shows planned at the Palace tonight?
Joe Englert & staff, I just started a nightlife tour bus company and I would love to take my groups to your new places on H street. We stop at 4 bars in 4 different neighborhoods and stay for an hour at each. Is there any way for me to get in touch with you? Thanks, Nikki
web- www.ridetheboomerang.com
email- nikki@ridetheboomerang.com
I'm still blown away at the "8 bucks is a lot to see a sword swallower"...
WHAT?!
I'm.. I'm.. stunned.
I blame television and overpopulation.
Sword-swallowing is a lost and dying art that takes tremendous amounts of personal dedication, hard work and integrity.
...and I'd like to see the poster swallow one. I'll pay him 9.50 even.
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