i'm all for it. the bldgs along second street are 90% new construction, and ugly as heck. even the ones along G street are mostly new, and mostly nasty.
this is a welcome addition to the area.
it sure will look different driving east over the hopscotch bridge!
Can we get some sort of guarantee from the developer that the first floor will include real retail for the neighborhood? Specifically, restaurant and/or grocery space? Otherwise you'll have a very large chunk of dead space there at night and on weekends. It needs to be something that serves the neighborhood, open nights and weekends.
Parts of the design are interesting (particularly the oversize windows in what appear to be residential portions), but the square building at 2nd and H is downright hideous. Very utilitarian. Looks like it fell out of the 1970s. Almost Soviet in it's lack of detail. This is a high profile corner. It'd be a shame to put that lackluster building up on that corner. The contrast between that and the Senate Square and Childrens Museum site directly across the street will be rather jarring.
I agree with hillman -- the building mostly seems good, but the 2nd and H section is awful. Looks like all those generic Mass Ave buildings, but cheaper.
Speaking of development, anyone know anything about the North side of the 300 block of H (just East of the Abdo development)?
Last I heard, development was stalled, and Harris Teeter was out of the deal.
Thanks for the comments, all. Here are some clarifications of the current situation:
The project being proposed at 200 H Street is all residential with street-level retail at 3rd & H and along 2nd Street.
There is a very small exception--a portion will be professional office space (think dentist/doctor types). This is only in the space that faces the H Street Bridge as it rises (and therefore is not conducive to windows). Some of this "blocked" space is also being used for the tenants' gym facility. This is space that just isn't suitable (or saleable) as residential or regular office space.
The street-level retail space at 3rd & H Street is sized to accommodate a neighborhood-style sit-down restaurant, or possibly a (quite) large coffeeshop.
yl, yes, Harris Teeter has backed out of considering 3rd & H Street for a store. This stalls the development until a grocery tenant can be located and locked in--because the layout of the grocery store dictates how the building supports are engineered.
Wegman's, Trader Joe's, Magruder's and Whole Foods have been mentioned as possible stores, but there are issues for each with the size of the space (either larger or smaller than their typcial store).
I find it interesting that the issue of "what if" HT doesn't lease the space has now come to pass. When this PUD project was approved before I was elected, I repeatedly asked "what if" at the ANC meetings, never getting a response (and the ANC never demanding an answer). Hopefully, the situation will be resolved and the project can move forward.
Side note. I read somewhere on dcmud or goodspeed that Harris Teeter has commited to a large, ground-floor space in a building to be built on 1st St. NE and M St. NE. (I think that's the address, it may be one block north, or one block south from there).
At least we're getting something nearby.
I agree that the contrast between the new building and the Children's Museum will be significant, but I'm not so sure that it will be all that bad.
I'd LOVE to see a rendering showing the contrast. Funny how they didn't include that.
I don't know if everyone agrees, but as a general rule I think requiring neighborhood-oriented retail (specifically, things like sit down restaurants and things that will be open nights and weekends) in all major new construction projects is vital to ensuring a lively street scene. Without a lively street scene, you lose a lot of the safety aspect.
It only takes a few 'dead spots' to kill a thriving street environment. And since we're planning for the future here, and these places will be with us for decades and longer, now is the time to push for as much as we can.
I know developers often don't like retail on the first floor, as it cuts into their profit margin, but it's something we really need.
You are right in that contrast isn't necessarily bad.
In fact, if the new Dreyfuss design was really cutting edge the contrast would actually be interesting and would add a lot of appeal to the block. But, sadly, it ain't, in the H and 2nd square building. It looks cheap and couldn't be more suburban boring.
Even something more like the design of 1010 Mass Ave NW would add a lot of visual punch to that corner. And it is the first thing you see after you cross the bridge, literally the gateway to H Street.
I know they are squeezing right up to the property line there, but adding additional elements like creative lighting or other elements that signify more of a 'gateway' building would help an awful lot.
Agreed. It is somewhat staid, when compared to other developments.
Not sure about retail in the first floor. I thought that they could charge/lease WAY more than they could a residential tenant. I thought it would be advantageous to locate retail space on the first floor.
Alan -
Are these renderings part of their process of getting the design accepted? Or is this a done deal?
I believe that these are the same folks that did the SEC bldg. across the street, correct? If so, you'd think that they would have been a bit more progressive in their design.
A couple of things that shape the design debate in the area covered by the H Street Overlay and Design Guidelines (H Street NE from 2nd to Bladensburg):
--street level retail is required, so hillman, your wish is granted...
--the Design Guidelines certainly allow for modern interpretations, but they do impose requirements intended to ensure that new buildings fit into the historic look of H Street--buildings must have a defined bottom, middle & top, brick is preferred, decorative tops preferred (like on Senate Square buildings)
--a thoroughly modern glass and steel look like the SEC building would completely ignore the Design Guidelines and would therefore not be likely to be approved. Also, the SEC "look" is typical of office buildings, not residential and would be (IMHO) out of place anywhere along H Street.
You may be right about retail rents vs residential. I'm not really sure. I know developers complain a lot about having to put retail in commercial or office buildings, but I don't know if that same idea carries over to residential.
I'd think from their point of view it'd enhance the rentability of their residential units, but I'm not a developer so I don't really know for sure.
Pingo--forgot your other question. The 200 H Street proposal is far from a done deal. Aside from the ongoing effort to refine the design, there are significant community concerns about the height and density of the project, especially given the proximity to the 2 story rowhouses on 3rd Street and G Street.
A final key concern expressed by many in the community is that the proposed upzoning plus the PUD gives the developer approx 140,000 sq ft more than the approx 260,000 sq ft otherwise permitted on the site (total building is 403,000 sq ft). For this "bonus" density (worth about $70,000,000 at $500/sq ft), the amenities being offered to the communit are pretty paltry and insignficant. Even if cost of construction eats up 1/2 of the "bonus" value, that is still basically a $35,000,000 windfall to the developer.
When upzoning and PUD process is undertaken (i.e., to allow more height/density than is permitted as a matter of right), it is normal that the developer offer a "community amenities package" to "compensate" the community for allowing the greater height/density and putting up with the attendant burdens on the community.
Very snapshot view, but I thought this might help, too.
Of course, the "let me propose ways to spend someone else's money" in me would suggest that they redo the building in question to resemble or suggest a giant H, for H Street, on the H Street frontage and on the 2nd Street side. The H part would be elaborate brickwork, and to make it an obvious H you'd either use glass or different colored materials for the other parts or recess them back somehow.
Then you highlight the H with some nice subdued colored lighting. You can do really stunning things with light these days.
Or a bunch of little H's, subtly lit......
Now that would be a gateway icon.
And people love living in an icon building, so it'd probably increase the desireability of their rentals / sales.
You could even call it "The H".
Chinatown has the Arch. Barracks Row will sooner or later have a grand plaza at Eastern Market. Other strips have iconic architecture.
Why should we have to settle for a bland box as our gateway icon?
And while I'm spending someone else's money, how about a large H on the roof, set so that you could see it as you cross the Hopscotch Bridge? Maybe some sort of a retro thing, like you used to see on rooftop billboards on old downtown buildings.... or like a water tower on a rooftop which has become such an iconic image for NYC.
It could be our own version of the Hollywood sign.
Of course height restrictions or other zoning issues may nix the practicality of that.
If these guys are asking for a variance worth tens of millions I'd think they'd be willing to create us something spectacular there. And it'd be in their financial best interest as well.
Crap. The Harris Teeter (or as my brother calls it, the Harry Tweeter) that they're planning in NOMA is not on goodspeed or dcmud. There are two other Petworth blogs that mentioned it. I just can't seem to find them. They were very comprehensive about the construction that's going on there. Inclusive of a nightclub like FUR.
Anyway, it seemed credible, but until I can find the source, it's just gossip.
I may have to give someone at HT a call to figure this out.
The H st. Facade of this building is very bleak. CAn't they add some greenery to soften it? Trees taht provide shade make for a far more welcoming streetscape. As it is, I can't see anyone voluntarily walking along this block, it is so ugly. I agree with Hillman that it is almost soviet in its blockish brutality. Please make room for a welcoming landscape at the H St. side.
The developer of the North side of the 300 block of H Street NE affirmatively stated that Harris Teeter had pulled out because they preferred the site in NOMA. So, I think it is a bit more than rumor. However, as I understand it, HT's commitment to the NOMA site is only what they gave to the 3rd & H Street NE site--nothing official or binding. Basically, because the NOMA site is not as far along as the 3rd & H Street NE site, it gives HT longer to think about whether they really want to come to our neighborhood (though I would submit that NOMA is pretty distinct and separate from our neighborhood).
I did not see a mention of the 14 historic structures that will be demolished to build this monstrous building. It is not an even trade and the immediate neighbors will be engulfed by this structure on two sides. Abdo sold out on the two huge structures behind the Children's museum. Why do we need to accept these mediocre concepts and designs?
K. Rutledge (resident of 700 block of Third Street, NE.
I like the new buildings at Senate Square. For new construction they are actually pretty nice. A lot more detail than most new construction.
If we expect good restaurants and retail we have to expect higher density. The bars and nightspots further down on H Street are going to draw a crowd from the entire region no matter what, but if we expect anything to thrive on the West End of H we've got to have a lot more residents than we have now.
At the developer presentation at Ebenezer's a month or so (maybe more) back, Dreyfus said that the H street finishes and design would be changed beyond this rendering. So they may well be working on making the bricking look more traditional (and more like Senate Square.)
27 comments:
wow! when?!
Isn't this end of H Street supposed to be primarily residential? This looks like big-time office space.
It will be a condo/apartment building.
That is quite a transformation from what is there now. those are some impressive drawings.
i'm all for it. the bldgs along second street are 90% new construction, and ugly as heck. even the ones along G street are mostly new, and mostly nasty.
this is a welcome addition to the area.
it sure will look different driving east over the hopscotch bridge!
Can we get some sort of guarantee from the developer that the first floor will include real retail for the neighborhood? Specifically, restaurant and/or grocery space? Otherwise you'll have a very large chunk of dead space there at night and on weekends. It needs to be something that serves the neighborhood, open nights and weekends.
Parts of the design are interesting (particularly the oversize windows in what appear to be residential portions), but the square building at 2nd and H is downright hideous. Very utilitarian. Looks like it fell out of the 1970s. Almost Soviet in it's lack of detail. This is a high profile corner. It'd be a shame to put that lackluster building up on that corner. The contrast between that and the Senate Square and Childrens Museum site directly across the street will be rather jarring.
I agree with hillman -- the building mostly seems good, but the 2nd and H section is awful. Looks like all those generic Mass Ave buildings, but cheaper.
Speaking of development, anyone know anything about the North side of the 300 block of H (just East of the Abdo development)?
Last I heard, development was stalled, and Harris Teeter was out of the deal.
Thanks for the comments, all. Here are some clarifications of the current situation:
The project being proposed at 200 H Street is all residential with street-level retail at 3rd & H and along 2nd Street.
There is a very small exception--a portion will be professional office space (think dentist/doctor types). This is only in the space that faces the H Street Bridge as it rises (and therefore is not conducive to windows). Some of this "blocked" space is also being used for the tenants' gym facility. This is space that just isn't suitable (or saleable) as residential or regular office space.
The street-level retail space at 3rd & H Street is sized to accommodate a neighborhood-style sit-down restaurant, or possibly a (quite) large coffeeshop.
yl, yes, Harris Teeter has backed out of considering 3rd & H Street for a store. This stalls the development until a grocery tenant can be located and locked in--because the layout of the grocery store dictates how the building supports are engineered.
Wegman's, Trader Joe's, Magruder's and Whole Foods have been mentioned as possible stores, but there are issues for each with the size of the space (either larger or smaller than their typcial store).
I find it interesting that the issue of "what if" HT doesn't lease the space has now come to pass. When this PUD project was approved before I was elected, I repeatedly asked "what if" at the ANC meetings, never getting a response (and the ANC never demanding an answer). Hopefully, the situation will be resolved and the project can move forward.
Best,
Alan Kimber
Commissioner, ANC 6C05
Alan:
I hate being a suckup, but you seem to be right on top of this one. Thank you.
Wegmans rocks. Terrific produce, great customer service, prices not nearly as high as Whole Foods.
We would truly be the envy of the entire area if we got a Wegmans.
Side note. I read somewhere on dcmud or goodspeed that Harris Teeter has commited to a large, ground-floor space in a building to be built on 1st St. NE and M St. NE. (I think that's the address, it may be one block north, or one block south from there).
At least we're getting something nearby.
I agree that the contrast between the new building and the Children's Museum will be significant, but I'm not so sure that it will be all that bad.
I'd LOVE to see a rendering showing the contrast. Funny how they didn't include that.
I don't know if everyone agrees, but as a general rule I think requiring neighborhood-oriented retail (specifically, things like sit down restaurants and things that will be open nights and weekends) in all major new construction projects is vital to ensuring a lively street scene. Without a lively street scene, you lose a lot of the safety aspect.
It only takes a few 'dead spots' to kill a thriving street environment. And since we're planning for the future here, and these places will be with us for decades and longer, now is the time to push for as much as we can.
I know developers often don't like retail on the first floor, as it cuts into their profit margin, but it's something we really need.
Pingo:
You are right in that contrast isn't necessarily bad.
In fact, if the new Dreyfuss design was really cutting edge the contrast would actually be interesting and would add a lot of appeal to the block. But, sadly, it ain't, in the H and 2nd square building. It looks cheap and couldn't be more suburban boring.
Even something more like the design of 1010 Mass Ave NW would add a lot of visual punch to that corner. And it is the first thing you see after you cross the bridge, literally the gateway to H Street.
I know they are squeezing right up to the property line there, but adding additional elements like creative lighting or other elements that signify more of a 'gateway' building would help an awful lot.
Hillman -
Agreed. It is somewhat staid, when compared to other developments.
Not sure about retail in the first floor. I thought that they could charge/lease WAY more than they could a residential tenant. I thought it would be advantageous to locate retail space on the first floor.
Alan -
Are these renderings part of their process of getting the design accepted? Or is this a done deal?
I believe that these are the same folks that did the SEC bldg. across the street, correct? If so, you'd think that they would have been a bit more progressive in their design.
Curiouser and curiouser.
A couple of things that shape the design debate in the area covered by the H Street Overlay and Design Guidelines (H Street NE from 2nd to Bladensburg):
--street level retail is required, so hillman, your wish is granted...
--the Design Guidelines certainly allow for modern interpretations, but they do impose requirements intended to ensure that new buildings fit into the historic look of H Street--buildings must have a defined bottom, middle & top, brick is preferred, decorative tops preferred (like on Senate Square buildings)
--a thoroughly modern glass and steel look like the SEC building would completely ignore the Design Guidelines and would therefore not be likely to be approved. Also, the SEC "look" is typical of office buildings, not residential and would be (IMHO) out of place anywhere along H Street.
Hope this info helps.
Best,
Alan Kimber
Commissioner, ANC 6C05
You may be right about retail rents vs residential. I'm not really sure. I know developers complain a lot about having to put retail in commercial or office buildings, but I don't know if that same idea carries over to residential.
I'd think from their point of view it'd enhance the rentability of their residential units, but I'm not a developer so I don't really know for sure.
Pingo--forgot your other question. The 200 H Street proposal is far from a done deal. Aside from the ongoing effort to refine the design, there are significant community concerns about the height and density of the project, especially given the proximity to the 2 story rowhouses on 3rd Street and G Street.
A final key concern expressed by many in the community is that the proposed upzoning plus the PUD gives the developer approx 140,000 sq ft more than the approx 260,000 sq ft otherwise permitted on the site (total building is 403,000 sq ft). For this "bonus" density (worth about $70,000,000 at $500/sq ft), the amenities being offered to the communit are pretty paltry and insignficant. Even if cost of construction eats up 1/2 of the "bonus" value, that is still basically a $35,000,000 windfall to the developer.
When upzoning and PUD process is undertaken (i.e., to allow more height/density than is permitted as a matter of right), it is normal that the developer offer a "community amenities package" to "compensate" the community for allowing the greater height/density and putting up with the attendant burdens on the community.
Very snapshot view, but I thought this might help, too.
Best,
Alan Kimber
Commissioner, ANC 6C05
Alan:
Would something like the design at 1010 Mass fly on H Street? It's got a lot of brick and while it has a modern flair it blends very nicely...
I don't know if you can post weblinks here, but here's a rendering.... it actually looks much better in person...
http://www.tentenmass.com/photogallery/?rid=7&id=6
Of course, the "let me propose ways to spend someone else's money" in me would suggest that they redo the building in question to resemble or suggest a giant H, for H Street, on the H Street frontage and on the 2nd Street side. The H part would be elaborate brickwork, and to make it an obvious H you'd either use glass or different colored materials for the other parts or recess them back somehow.
Then you highlight the H with some nice subdued colored lighting. You can do really stunning things with light these days.
Or a bunch of little H's, subtly lit......
Now that would be a gateway icon.
And people love living in an icon building, so it'd probably increase the desireability of their rentals / sales.
You could even call it "The H".
Chinatown has the Arch. Barracks Row will sooner or later have a grand plaza at Eastern Market. Other strips have iconic architecture.
Why should we have to settle for a bland box as our gateway icon?
And while I'm spending someone else's money, how about a large H on the roof, set so that you could see it as you cross the Hopscotch Bridge? Maybe some sort of a retro thing, like you used to see on rooftop billboards on old downtown buildings.... or like a water tower on a rooftop which has become such an iconic image for NYC.
It could be our own version of the Hollywood sign.
Of course height restrictions or other zoning issues may nix the practicality of that.
If these guys are asking for a variance worth tens of millions I'd think they'd be willing to create us something spectacular there. And it'd be in their financial best interest as well.
Crap. The Harris Teeter (or as my brother calls it, the Harry Tweeter) that they're planning in NOMA is not on goodspeed or dcmud. There are two other Petworth blogs that mentioned it. I just can't seem to find them. They were very comprehensive about the construction that's going on there. Inclusive of a nightclub like FUR.
Anyway, it seemed credible, but until I can find the source, it's just gossip.
I may have to give someone at HT a call to figure this out.
The H st. Facade of this building is very bleak. CAn't they add some greenery to soften it? Trees taht provide shade make for a far more welcoming streetscape. As it is, I can't see anyone voluntarily walking along this block, it is so ugly. I agree with Hillman that it is almost soviet in its blockish brutality. Please make room for a welcoming landscape at the H St. side.
The developer of the North side of the 300 block of H Street NE affirmatively stated that Harris Teeter had pulled out because they preferred the site in NOMA. So, I think it is a bit more than rumor. However, as I understand it, HT's commitment to the NOMA site is only what they gave to the 3rd & H Street NE site--nothing official or binding. Basically, because the NOMA site is not as far along as the 3rd & H Street NE site, it gives HT longer to think about whether they really want to come to our neighborhood (though I would submit that NOMA is pretty distinct and separate from our neighborhood).
Best,
Alan Kimber
Commissioner, ANC 6C
I did not see a mention of the 14 historic structures that will be demolished to build this monstrous building. It is not an even trade and the immediate neighbors will be engulfed by this structure on two sides. Abdo sold out on the two huge structures behind the Children's museum. Why do we need to accept these mediocre concepts and designs?
K. Rutledge (resident of 700 block of Third Street, NE.
I like the new buildings at Senate Square. For new construction they are actually pretty nice. A lot more detail than most new construction.
If we expect good restaurants and retail we have to expect higher density. The bars and nightspots further down on H Street are going to draw a crowd from the entire region no matter what, but if we expect anything to thrive on the West End of H we've got to have a lot more residents than we have now.
At the developer presentation at Ebenezer's a month or so (maybe more) back, Dreyfus said that the H street finishes and design would be changed beyond this rendering. So they may well be working on making the bricking look more traditional (and more like Senate Square.)
that's good to hear. the bldg. as it stands, won't fly.
hehe.. funny. get it? won't fly?
they'll have to significantly change a lot of design aspects.
but, i have a feeling it'll all turn out ok.
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