Caribbean Crescent (which actually sells Indian food) offers all kinds of dalls.
Ok, if you are a regular reader you probably know that I love to compare the Florida Market (i.e. the Capital City Market) to Philadelphia's Italian Market. So, here we go again. Check out the Wikipedia entry for the Italian Market. I suggest paying particular attention to the "Visiting the Italian Market" section. They aren't kidding. The Italian Market is a serious tourist attraction, but it is also a fully functional market that serves both businesses and residents. It's not just the impossible dream, it does actually happen, and it could happen here too.
27 comments:
i guess anything is possible.....
and in that light, maybe bush will resign next week.
Have you been to the Italian Market. I suspect not. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. But if you have been, What did you think. What's your comparison? I think the Italian Market is a good model. You've got the existing market evolving to continue appealing its target market, and also expanding its markets. If there were not existing models I'd understand your skepticism, but as it is I just don't get it. What is it you want to see here instead of the Florida Market? And what exactly justifies the forceful taking of private land for the New Town deal when this is a fulling functioning and profitable market (assuming that you think it is justified)? I say profitable for various reasons, including that some of the existing vendors have recent expanded into previously vacant spaces. Can we take someone's property just because we don't like the business they run? Can I take the property down the street because the guys renovating it have not been securing it well?
I think it's important to separate the two arguments. One is whether it's "right" to use eminent domain to take the properties and do New Town. The other is whether the Fla. Market could evolve into an Italian Market.
On point one I fall squarely with the no-eminent-domain crowd (unless all the owners of the property sold willingly except for one holdout or something like that). The deal should happen in the light of day with no government handouts or eminent domain. If the city is so big on affordable housing they should be big on affordable wholesale space, too.
But on the second point I don't see the one-to-one analogy. The Fla. Market is ugly (unlike the description of the Italian Market, which says businesses are in the bottom floors of rowhomes...read: quaint). And there is the huge barrier of Florida Ave between the market and its biggest pool of potential customers. Maybe there should be traffic calming measures or a pedestrian bridge or tunnel. But who would pay for it? The city has nothing to gain if the market stays the way it is. And the owners...if they paid for it then rents would have to go up.
I feel the market can't evolve into something attractive...it would take a big infusion of cash. And cash infusers want a return on their money so that means higher rents. And that could mean these profitable businesses aren't profitable any more. Catch 22.
Rob,
the Italian Market isn't exactly the same set-up. Quaint is a stretch. The is some upstairs living. There is also planty of living a few blocks away. The layout in the Florida Market is more like NY's Meatpacking District. I don't believe that just because you can't have housing directly above means that you can't have a successful district (housing is right down the street).
Honestly, go to the Italian Market. It looks a lot like the Florida Market (I promise). I belive there is the potential for a tourist attraction here, as well as greater retail use by the neighborhood. Traffic calming is a good idea. But don't peopl cross Florida from Trinind to visit H Street. Isn't CT Ave pretty busy too? Bottom line. visit the Italian Market. It isn't as far off as it seems.
Ok, sign into flickr and look at a few pages of photos here, you'll see a bit of what the Italian Market looks like. It's nothing fancy.
there is housing down the street from the florida market, but i would hardly call it affordable nowadays.....
No need to sell me on traveling far & wide to visit the Italian Market. I'm from originally from South Jersey and I'll get some friends to go there with me next time I go back to visit.
Looking at some of the pics on Flickr,
http://www.flickr.com/photos/photos_in_the_sunset/407539027/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/snado/380155736/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/photos_in_the_sunset/407539027/
I see rowhouses. It's got a different vibe...welcoming, rough-yes-but alive, vibrant. Florida Ave is a deathtrap...I look both ways *three* times when crossing it on the way to H St. and it's narrower where I'm crossing. Maybe these problems can be solved. I think the city should not do New Town unless it provides an equally accessible place for the wholesale businesses.
i dig what inked is saying. it would be fantastic to have a really cool 'authentic' market (which the florida market is, it just needs ALOT of work).
however, there needs to be a realistic plan in place, with buy-in from lots of parties, and (as rob mentioned) lots of investment (which entails a decent ROI in an otherwise stalling economy, read HARD).
i'm not in love with the New Town thing, but... heck, developers are screwing up historical venues all over the country. it wouldn't be the worst thing that happened, especially if they could retain some of the vendors, AND keep the architecture fairly decent. that's where you elected folks can really help to do something. you can't regulate how a person spends their capital, and the supreme court did sort of uphold eminent domain.....
so.. you can help guide it, in the very least.
i can see inked whipping out a gallaudet type sit-in as they knock down some of the first buildings......
in georgetown, they build the Loews theatre, and the Ritz hotel on what was a pretty nifty old factory. granted, it was vacant.
i dunno. i think there may be some hope if folks pitch in some good ideas, and stand behind them.
THAT'S the hard part! :o/
Some rowhouses, but the Florida Market buildings really aren't bad if you look closely. Did you know that some of them were used as barracks at one point? All the buildings do have some detailing, and they actually look pretty good over all (in my opinion). I have walked outside the areas of the Italian Market that are photographed, and it isn't all rowhouses.
Ok, I'm not trying to be argumentative...I'm just a techie who wishes he had been a planning/development major and this stuff fascinates me. One other big difference I see between the Italian market and the Fla. market is this: the Italian market and Eastern market can be entered from any direction on the map. The streets *go* somewhere (and thus feed into it from all sides). Just as markets and villages have grown up at crossroads since there have been roads.
But the Fla. Market is isolated geographically...on three sides are barriers...there's only one way in, across Fla. from "SoFlo". That makes it much less natural as the kind of place you're thinking of. And it makes increasing the safety of crossing Florida a must.
That said I will explore both the I.M. and the F.M. further and see what I can see.
BTW are there any Arabic readers out there...it looks like that guy's sign says "Daleen", which I think would be the plural of Dal. But the 'd' looks like an 'r' and the nun is missing the dot. Does it say something else?
Rob,
you are right, you can't hit it from all sides, but you can hit the market from three sides (top left, bottom right, bottom left). Not so bad. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the Italian Market once you visit.
I'm not looking for some Gallaudet type thing (I suspect New Town may fail on its own). I think there is money for fixing places up with small business loans. And I think vendors might be willing (some already are) to take the plunge if they see the demnad. The office of Planning could help put together a plan. Seriously, isn't this what we do in other commercial districts?
Personally, I don't trust the New Town thing. They want lots of stuff from the city, and read the actual act if you are concerned about the architecture. There is a clause, but it's pretty easily waivable at the whim of the developer and the Office of Planning. The developer's attourny already made a comment in the Post that his client and the District had already destroyed any architectural value. Plus, Choi (the developer) demolished one of the Market buildings recently. So how many buildings do you expect to remain standing?
I also don't think we'll be retaining many vendors. If you build new structures (with optional building for current structure owners --not vendors) you'll see increased rents because it is new constuction (check this if you don't believe me). I doubt many of the vendors can/will pay. They'll move to Maryland (which has a thriving wholesale food area). That's a lo of existing vendors and jobs that will just disappear.
just two tidbits....
- no matter what happens to the market, rents/leases are going to go up. you can't expect that with all the changes going on in the area, folks are going to be able to lease those 'detailed bldgs' for pennies on the dollar. ain't gonna happen.
- yes, u r right. it's the plural. just bad handwriting.
I guess I'm ignorant on this, but I thought that this fight was lost. Is that not true? I like the Market, and while I can imagine good things to be done with it, I'd rather have what there is than the New Town plan. But I had heard that the Council voted unanimously to go with the New Town plan a couple of months ago. Is there still a fight to be fought here?
As is owners can choose to raise the rents, but new construction means much higher rents. This is really a way to push existing vendors out.
New Town is not a done deal. The Council pushed the legislation through, but Catani put in a provision requiring the approval of 50% the owners of 50% of the land before they can use eminient domain to seize the land of resistent landowners. So far, they don't have 50% approval.
I heard on WAMU a couple of weeks ago that the office of planning is starting a study of retail in the District. If it's possible to influence such things supporters of the Fla. Market could put in a good word for more retail using the existing infrastructure over there. Last comment I promise.
Actually, the Office of Planning already did a study in Ward 5 and that was exactly what they recommended for the Florida Market. It's just that we aren't listening to that report.
50% of the owners of 50% of the land is equivalent to 25% of the *owners*. Am I reading you right?
Also, is it really owners or do you mean tenants?
No, sorry. I meant the approval of the owners of 50% of the land. That extra 50% was left over from me retyping something where I had mistakenly said 50% of the land owners. I was tired when I typed that. I do mean landowners. Tenants get no voice in the matter.
Although I completely agree that the Florida is too isolated, I don't agree that there is no way to get to the market except off of Florida.
When I worked in MD, I always drove (slowly) up the extension of 6th Street to get to New York Ave, and coming home, took the left at Penn, which turns into 4th Street. Many people just don't realize that you can also get to the market from New York Ave. Also, when I need to get there, I go to/from Brentwood Shopping Center via 6th Street--coming back is another entrance to the market. It could be made more accessible--it just isn't right now.
For what it's worth, while I think the market needs LOTS of work I don't think the New Town proposal enacted by the Council is the best solution--not by a stretch.
Best,
Alan Kimber
ANC Commissioner, 6C05
One of the things that will need to happen-whether it is for the NewTown development or in order to restore a good part of the Market and bring in tourist and increase foot traffic over there is to make it a safer and more pleasant walk from the NY Ave Gallaudet metro. Further if the Market could be made a better mix of restaurants etc I think it would be a hugely successful way to draw employees from the Noma Office District/ ATF building that way for lunch. They are going to have a ton of hungry employees.
Maybe you can continue to post the link to the Pedestrian Master Plan questionaire on links with the Market posts and suggest that peoeple fill it out with this area in mind. I have been able to log on multiple times and submit comments for a variety of areas of concern to me in the North of H area.
Back to the development v Preservation argument: I think that there is a good happy medium to be found- and I agree with Inked that there are a lot of buildings with character up there- they are just hidden by very utilitarian facades at street level.
In a perfect world I would love to devote a ton of time to be a part of a fundraising/outreach effort based largely upon a lot of the groundwork you and Richard have laid, Friends of the Florida Market or something. In the meatime-please keep up the good work of sharing the info and ideas for what is possible up there. I will continue to encourage friends and coworkers to check it out with an open mind.
Hi Alan, yes agreed that by car you can enter the Market from any direction. My point is that the Italian Market and Eastern Market have streets that lead to people's homes in all directions. The Fla. Market has homes directly connected by streets in only one direction...towards SoFlo. Now, here may be reasons why this is technically not true :-) but if you look at a sattelite map it's a definite qualitative difference and I think it impacts the accessibility of the Fla. Market.
I've been to the Italian Market. The main difference between that and what we have on Florida Ave is that the Italian Market is mostly retail and what we have is not. Sure, a couple of places will sell to the general public but the vast majority do not. Honestly I don't remember the Italian Market architecture being very stunning. I remember it being sortof dirty. But it was a terrific experience because almost all merchants made an effort to sell directly to the public.
What we have now is wholesale business. Honestly, how many locals are going to buy some of the junk for sale in the Florida Ave market? A lot is tourist trinkets and such.
I'd love to see the Fla Ave market go retail. That way it would truly serve the community. As it is now, it's simply warehouse space. You could argue it serves the overall area, but not really the community specifically (with a few exceptions).
Just a couple comments.
1. I have a bunch of Italian Market photos too in my Flickr account -- www.flickr.com/photos/rllayman
(And more Reading Terminal Market photos which still haven't been uploaded from my trip to Philly a couple weeks ago.)
2. It might be true that Italian Market is more retail than ours, but if you really compared square footage, you would be surprised, and DC's version would compare favorably.
3. It's more accurate to say that the retail at the Italian Market is more concentrated, for the most part only on one street (is it 9th?). Ironically, a Penn urban design class was doing a survey of patrons when I was there...
4. For Rob who wishes he was a planning grad, this is part about "legibility" and "wayfinding" and explaining how to get around.
But to be fair, even the vendors don't know what else is over there because they spend all their time in their own places.
One of the reasons I included a photo in my blog a few weeks ago about the restrooms in Reading Terminal Market was to make the point that you need 'em...
Anyway, Italian Market, for the most part has all its retail concentrated on the one street (9th St.?) so it seems like there is more than the Florida Market.
When you count the Farmers Market building in the Florida Market, we might have more.
But the store hours at the DC market vary, and by comparison Italian Market has more variety of upscale places. Most all the stores on the Fantes side of the street.
(E.g., compare Fantes to Best Restaurant Equipment.)
Italian Market doesn't really have more restaurants. Although it does have a coffee place or two.
That being said, Florida Market needs restaurants as someone suggested.
5. Someday maybe I'll take Elise to the Strip District in Pittsburgh, which other people have mentioned in comments over the past year.
The Strip District kicks the a*** of both the Florida Market and the Italian Market (combined).
(And if things break right, I'll do a little consulting for them in their attempt to create a market building. I met with some of the group's leaders for lunch on Saturday...)
The Italian Market has a different sort of restaurants. Some people don't want to eat at places like K-Young's (but the food is great, they also do takeout).
Maybe we could do the Strip District thing this summer.
here's a link to some great photos of the strip district:
http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=7793.0
1. Road Trip this summer, sure. I don't think I'll get another all expenses paid trip to PGH in the meantime (hmm, maybe to present the final report...). It has to include Saturday though because the Strip District is totally kicking Saturday during the day--especially if there is a sporting event at one of the nearby fields (i.e., PNC Park).
2. Sorry about the duplicate text...
I think the Italian Market is great. I just have problems with the merchants and the city for not keeping up with it... I am Architecture Student that is researching the market, I had found that it is possible if we take the market, expand it, to create a growth that can actually be beneficials for the merchants, since the growth will help it connect with other districs in south philly and maybe center city.
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