Interested in the topic? If so, you might want to attend a public hearing on the issue. The hearing is being held by the ANC 6A Alcohol Beverage Licensing Committee. Right now the committee is merely looking at the possibility (assuming there is public support for such a measure) of requesting a moratorium on new CT (tavern) & CN (nightclub) licenses. The moratorium would not affect CRs (restaurant licenses). Adams Morgan recently instituted a cap on tavern and nightclub licenses. One good point made in the article is that many CR license holders may not actually be selling the required percentage of food.
Tuesday Nov 20th
7-9pm
Sherwood Recreation Center (10th & G NE)
Other places of interest:
BarDC list of nightclubs and bars in Adams Morgan (map)
BarDC list of nightclubs and bars on H Street (map)
Street Liquor Economics (this one's not about bars, but about malt liquor generally and probably relates more to singles sales)
51 comments:
So instead of encouraging establishments who are pioneering enough to open on H Street, 6A is looking to stop future independent small businesses from breathing some vitality into the area? Wow.
I got this notice on my door too. I can conceive of a "theoretical limit" on the number of bars. I just think this conversation is way too premature. There's probably 7 vacant buildings for every bar on H street - possibly more. I hope someone proposes a limit on the number of vacant properties on H street. The process to get a liquor license on H street is a gauntlet already (rightfully so if you ask me). Lets not scare off would be investors who want to spend money, sign voluntary agreements, be good neighbors, etc. good thought/silly timing.
This is an unbelievable disaster.
Even the discussion has caused one venture I know of to balk. This is very very bad.
I agree. It's way too early to be having this conversation. Fine for Adams Morgan, but just plain silly for H Street at this juncture.
One question and one comment. Is there anyway to submit comments for this farce, I mean hearing? I have school that night and won't be able to make it.
Second beyond agreeing with what both anonymous' said I would like to express how sad outrages I was to see that the decision to seek a moratorium has already been made by the 6A committee. The notice left on my door indicates (I don't have it front of me so I am going from memory) that the choice is between allowing bars to proliferate unfettered and destroy the neighborhood or not let anymore come in and save the neighborhood and allow it to grow more quickly. I would much rather have a bar than a vacant house with a bunch of crack addicts next to me. It is not like like the Gap and Bed bath and beyond are rushing to move into the area.
Is anyone on Frozen Tropics that supports this? I really would like to hear the rationale. I can't really fathom how people would think H Street is already overrun with bars and we need to put a stop to it. What are they trying to preserve with this limit?
I'd like to hear the argument for this. Anyone?
Seems a bit unfair to allow so many licences go to Joe Engler, and then talk about limiting the number. Maybe it could have been discussed before he came into the picture, but I have to agree that placing limits now is not a good idea.
There are concerns that so many "liquor based joints" drive up the rents, so that other types of business cannot not afford to locate. However, it seems that we already have the high rents...
Joe Englert:
I think it is a good idea to explore how many bars is a good thing.It might be 10 more. It might be 20. And it won't mean that there won't be 40 or 50 restaurants on the strip either besides them.
Before jumping to conclusions....this is a planning initiative. Ask those people in Adams Morgan if this might have been a good thing to explore 20 years ago.
If it was looked at a bit harder then, maybe there would be some shopping there now, a hardware store, etc.
When an entire 14 block zone could be all bars, there is no incentive for a property owner to rent to any one else. It could be the way to diversify the strip and make it more retail friendly.
That being said, the whole moratorium issue is sort of important. The big issue is PARKING. But it is mind-boggling how DC can never supply the parking it needs for its retail districts. Why can Bethesda, Arlington, Alexandria and even Fredrick Maryland get it down but not us?
Also freaky is how Business Development, DCRA, etc. somehow never includes the present businesses on any discussions on building H into a retail core
I agree, the issue is parking. A parking garage really needs to be built along H.
Bars - even discussing a limit to bars right now is counterproductive. How about having this discussion five years from now, when it may actually be more relevant. As it is, it's extremely hard to open a bar in DC. A 'neighborhood referendum' is the last thing I'd do if I was looking to open a nice place along a still sketchy area like H.
Eventually, maybe. Right now, not only premature - actually dangerous to development of H.
Joe Englert, you now hold so many liquor licenses in the area, and now you have decided to use the ANC to keep your competitors out. Wow!
A full discussion of the importance of proper urban planning would indeed be a very helpful proposition. An effort to get investment from the city and/or our Capitol Hill neighbors to develop restaurant/retail opportunities along H Street would be even better. But a call to put the brakes on the seeds of what could be a blossoming area seems to be premature at best.
At this point, I don't think I'm the only one who feels the more businesses that drive foot traffic the better.
A LOT of presumptions go into worrying that the area is becoming Adams Morgan...
I was shocked to get this flyer on my door as well. Who proposed this, I wonder? But the points about not allowing unfettered development without concomitant parking, and encouraging retail development at the same time, are valid. I wouldn't live in Adams Morgan if it were free (well, maybe.)
Joe Englert said:
"I think it is a good idea to explore how many bars is a good thing. It might be 10 more. It might be 20."
I'm a huge supporter of you and your bars, Joe, and am excited to see the restaurants you plan to develop next. But supporting a ban on future bar development, even if well intentioned on your part, smacks of protectionism. Seriously -- this makes you look bad, and for H Street's sake I want you to look good.
How about measures to encourage restaurants and retail (tax breaks, landlord incentives, anti-vacancy laws, etc.), rather than to discourage bars?
anonymous (2:55) said:
"This is an unbelievable disaster. Even the discussion has caused one venture I know of to balk. This is very very bad."
Someone bailed out on a planned bar on H St. because of a discussion of a possible future limit on bars that couldn't possibly affect any bar opened in the next 5 years? Anyone who made a business decision on that basis shouldn't be running a business anyway.
Joe Englert said:
Whoa. What is the matter with a little planning? No one said that there would be an outright ban on any more licenses. I would advocate studying what is a good number of tavern and nightclub licenses to have in the area.
Maybe there would be the ability to support 3 or 4 more nightclubs and 5 to 7 more taverns.
Then how many more restaurnts is a good thing? 25? 35? How many could the area logically support and sustain before these places are desperate to become taken over by fly-by-night promoters?
If landlords knew that there were a limited of number of licenses available, several things could happen.
1) Maybe some of these guys would hustle to improve or sell their buildings.
2) Others might be compelled to rent to uses other than food or liquor.
3) Much needed services could start to dot the retail landscape--bakeries, small produce stores, eye glass shops, designer shoes, designer clothes, cheese shop, etc. Is it bad to have these things get a chance to thrive?
You are wrong about me not wanting to have good neighbors. Every time a new liquor establishment opens up near me on Dupont or Capitol Hill, my sales go up anywhere from 10-30%.
Also, I have been in many neighborhoods where too many licenses mean too many bad operators as a consequence. 100 liquor licenses like Adams-Morgan weakens ALL the establishments there.
I owned the Toledo Lounge and thank God I got out of there before the current mess the area has become---chaos, violence and traffic nightmares. Then there are the tons of pissed off neighbors and knee-jerk politicians and city administrators lumping every business into the "bad" category. Why not avoid such a mess in 5-10 years?
The topic of the forum seems like a reasonable question. Given the long lead time on many city actions, it's really never to early to start the discussion. We can discuss it now, or after X number of bars creates some undesirable situation and the next bar wants to open. (Granted, H St NE is a long way from being Adams Morgan.)
Letting the market alone determine the total number of bars on H St may lead to more bars than would be optimal to the extent that the cost of operating a bar does not reflect negative externalities imposed on the surrounding neighborhood (reduced residential parking, crowding out other desirable businesses, noise, rowdy behavior, etc).
Voluntary agreements with new bars provide some means for reducing certain externalities, but not others (parking, crowding out).
Once licenses are granted they tend to be transferred, but don't go away. So there may be some danger of overshoot (as some might argue has happened in Adams Morgan).
I don't have them (sorry), but some hard number comparisons of H and AM might help the discussion: late night parking availability, police calls for service, percentage retail vacancies, percentage of retail space currently occupied by bars, etc.
i agree with the notion that the ANC should somehow be advocating for policy that attracts a more diverse range of businesses. Has/can an ANC lobby the Council for corridor-specific tax breaks? I am told there is already a tax break for operating a business on the north side of H (true? false? half-true?).
perhaps there are other things they can do, like writing letters to retail chains encouraging them to relocate onto the corridor? organizing community letter writing campaigns on the issue of somehow penalizing the absentee owners who let their buildings rot?
ps: can we eliminate the anonymous function? why can't people at least choose a username so we can refer to people by name instead of anonymous @ time? y'all can choose other and type in your very own unique user name even without a blogger (or gmail?) account. it also would allow some context to comments (i.e. person a is always opposed to or supports x, so i know how much weight to give his/her commentary on x-related issues)
Um, isn't there already a planning overlay for H that wouldn't allow 14 blocks of only bars? Isn't only the area on the East End designated as 'entertainment'?
What are the limitations imposed by that overlay?
Yes, business owners do test the nature of the community, including how residents react to businesses.
For instance, Dupont Circle is getting a reputation for being an area where pissy neighbors will block pretty much any business, expressing shock that their condo above the nightclub that was there when they bought isn't as deathly quiet as, say, a farmhouse in Montana.
This reputation means more than one good business has bypassed Dupont entirely.
Of course, they can afford to be pissy, as they have already developed.
H Street is far from the day where we can afford to be pissy.
Maybe my problem is less with the idea of a study (I thought that's what the H Street plan was already, with the breaking the strip into 3 development sections) and more with the fairly inflammatory "Ban Bars?" language of the flyer.
Yes, the negative impacts of H Street development should be considered.
The one largest consideration would be an actual parking garage. The time to plan for that is now.
But let's be honest. Anyone that lives near H knows they bought or are renting near a commercial strip. You take the good with the bad. You can't live next door to a commercial strip then complain because the strip develops. You can ask for reasonable behavior from the business owner, but far too often in DC residents get extra pissy and demand unrealistic things. When we start doing that on H Street before we actually get any development, then we'll end up with what we have now, which ain't really that much.
since we're all expressing our little opinions here, i'll let mine go down for the record: i want a ferris wheel on H street. think about it. it'll be one of the only places of interest for children, it meshes with the "palace of wonders", and it'll give a great view of the surrounding hood for those that can't afford to live in the new high rise condos.
you know i'm right. how can we work this into the holier than thou overlay??
Call me naïve but I actually have some faith in the ability the ABC system to prevent another Adams Morgan from happening on H st. without the inflammatory language used to promote this meeting. I swear I read an article in the City Paper every week about the ABC bringing the hammer down on someone.
Someone that has been in D.C. longer than me could say this better, but the ABC is not the same agency as it was ten years ago when Adam Morgan was really expanding. (From my understanding). I believe it one of the current city councilmen really cleaned the agency up around 2000. Apparently before that it was a free for with liquor licenses with no repercussion for being a bad operator. I don’t believe the same situation exists. It is not like someone can walk to the ABC and get a liquor license in one day, it can take years.
It seams from the comments here that the discussion should really be about putting a parking garage. Maybe since so many people want to see H St. connection gone we could put a parking garage at 8th and H st., which sounds safe.
I agree that parking is a key issue on H Street - I think anti-car "purists" do us a disservice by sweeping this issue under the rug. Like thousands of people who live on the Hill, I would shop H Street (if there were places to shop). How am I supposed to get there though? Car is the only practical option. I'd rather drive the mile to H Street, though, than 20 miles to the mall. Providing the parking somehow, somewhere down there does not necessarily suburbanize the neighborhood, may in fact reduce vehicle miles travelled for us city dwellers, and give us more local options. I think we should really look at this issue without being so knee-jerk reactionary about cars. p.s. I am a five day a week public transit rider and enjoy my livable walkable community. This is just a plea for some realism!
There may be merit to some reasonable planning but as someone who got shouted down at several meetings supporting Joe's establishments, I would caution you against being the driver of this effort. You look like you are closing the door behind you. Makes me wonder why we didn't hear about this postion before you laid your ample stake on H street. Nonetheless, corridor planning is reasonable. Its important that H street have diverse businesses and diverse business owners. I propose a limit of two on the number of businesses one person or entity can have on H Street.
- Adam Smith
Pobrepaul,
the Connection is already slated for redevelopment into a taller mixed-use structure. Where else exactly would you put a parking garage? This seems to me just more reason to really push for light rail/a branded (because it's easier for visitors) shuttle sooner rather than later. We just finished reading that Post article on how ACTCo is having some financial difficulties at the Atlas. Tell me that isn't related to transportation difficulties.
The issue of parking has come up, as it inevitably had to appear. But how, you ask are bars different from other businesses? wouldn't people also need to drive to those? Yes, people have got to bike, bus, walk, or drive to anything on H. So you've got the same issue (with bars/restaurants you probably have higher instances of people driving when they shouldn't) whether you are looking at a bar, or retail (except that when bars, or coffee shops for that matter, around here are crowded I think you get more people than most boutique retail is going to attract to the same space). So you don't get away from parking issues by limiting CT licenses, unless you also want to limit the total number of C of Os, which I don't think anyone is proposing. But we've got to come up with some good transportation solutions.
There are a couple problems with how people think about the retail offer on H St.
First, the fact is there isn't enough capacity to support much of the retail that people say they want, at least right now, given the number of patrons and prospects.
Second, retail revitalization is really a phased process. Reliant upon getting people resampling and visiting the commercial district. So the taverns now are getting people to sample a place that face it, two years ago, they never would have visited. Frankly, without the taverns, Atlas would be declining because it would be jewel in a sea of rut. Again, it's all about layering attractions and leveraging existing investment. Over time, retail is more possible, but will still require verve in order to make work.
Probably the issue isn't "why are there so many taverns?," because frankly, there aren't that many out of 300 or so store slots on the corridor, but "why isn't there more retail?" and then work to understand and address the issues.
If you talk to retailers in Capitol Hill, they complain about the relative weakness of their market, and by comparison it's much stronger than H Street...
It's a complicated thing, but while the point of planning in advance makes sense, the idea of a moratorium seems illogical. Yes, the zoning overlay for Cleveland Park has a 25% limit on restaurants, but that is about a two block long commercial district. H Street is 12 blocks, and the 600 and 1200 blocks are each equal to 2 normally sized blocks, and the 1300 block is equal to 3 normally sized blocks, so it's the equivalent of 16 blocks. And there are maybe 10 places that are taverns/night life establishments.
While people compare the area (or 8th St. SE) to Adams-Morgan, that area has about 6 times the immediate population and skews younger demographically. There is a ceiling on how much H St. (or Barracks Row) can compete with other districts for this night time segment.
Speaking of thinking of this in terms of phases, look at the kinds of restaurants (also selling liquor) locating on 8th Street SE now. It's a new generation, seeded by Belga and Starfish, but now with additional interesting, and coming attractions.
Likely, if not too fouled up, that can happen on H Street too, especially, and speaking of planning thinking very long term, with streetcar service.
Joe Englert:
This could sound harsh--but we do not have enough elected officials or people working in economic development that understand what a vibrant urban community is all about. I have gone to countless meetings and forums to listen to these people whom simply don't have a clue how to create, sustain or promote a unique sense of place.
Most of these people think the end all is Baltimore's Inner Harbor. They also are in love with big box retail and chains. Why go to all the great little towns in New England or Austin, Minneapolis, Chicago etc. and do research and work when you can park your rump in Vegas and beg chains to move near the new stadiunm?
These are the people who make decisions. So when it comes to parking, realistic planning, etc. don't hold your breath. There has been a lot of purty maps and charts created for H but when it comes to concrete plans and execution.........whoa, not a lot there.
I can't believe I am saying this but I agree with Poo Poo. I think a ferris wheel would be kind of a cool landmark on H street.
A good spot for a parking garage would be Hechinger Mall. The land is there and the space is there. The whole thing is ripe for redevelopment.
I think that at this point, the corridor is not ready to turn away any development. Frankly without the restaurants and bars, people won't come to H Street. We have or had a hardware store, but they are selling the business. The book store lasted a laughable period of time and more than half of the corridor is composed of abandoned storefronts.
One thing on the parking is that in the H Street Strategic Development Plan, there is slated / suggested that a public parking garage be integrated into plans to redevelop the H Street Connection site. The concept expressed in the Plan is that there is room on that lot to have a parking structure located behind the portion of a project that would front on H Street (presumably with access to the garage through the front of the building).
There is a proposal being put together by the developer who is proposing to redevelop the site, but the details have not yet been presented to the community. Preliminarily, the indication has been that they are proposing a 90' tall mixed use building (8 floors), with a 6.0 FAR--covering the maximum amount of ground & height permitted under a PUD. It is not clear whether the developer has incorporated the suggestion of a parking garage--though I rather doubt it (hopefully I am wrong, because parking is going to become more of a problem).
My understanding is that the developer will be presenting their preliminary proposal at both the 6A & 6C zoning committees in December, to get feedback prior to submitting their application.
Best,
Alan Kimber
ANC Commissioner, 6C05
Virrey,
Unfortunately I'm unaware of any current proposals for giant ferris wheels. Park's has been on the market for a while, but I think it's more of a testing the water thing rather than a serious wish to sell.
Alan K., perhaps I spoke too soon about the Connection. I think the 6A meeting in the 27th of Nov, right?
Hey Everyone,
I'm on the Alcohol, Beverage and Licensing Committee and first let me say that I'm really excited to hear this conversation and read these opinion. I wanted to respond to some of the questions people put forth about the process and then give my own views.
First, it's not a choice of limiting the bars or letting them develop unchecked. If we decide against a cap on the number of licenses, then we can still make a decision on a case by case basis, and at any time stop granting licences. If we decide against a cap now, we can always revisit it in a couple years.
Also, we definitely have not decided to do this. A majority of the committee thought the issue was important enough at this point to at least have a public forum to discuss it.
One of the reasons, in my opinion, that this came up is because of the community comment that the committee generally gets. It's understandable that the people that would come to meetings are either owners of the taverns or people in the community that have a bone to pick with the taverns. Rarely do we get community members to attend a meeting that favor the development on H st. I understand that it's just more likely to motivate to attend a meeting if you're upset about something then if you support what's going on. But I think that's why many of the committee members feel that the community is more against the development then I believe we really are.
We hear negative comments about the bars, including:
Trash/rodent
Noise
Public drunkeness/urination
Parking
That people want restaurants not bars (though I think this is a false choice)
And other complaints. All of these are valid issues and need to be addressed, but I know many of us think that when weighed against the positives of economic development, we can accept some of the negatives that come with the night life.
We had a presentation by the Adams Morgan ANC reps last month and there are some important facts that need to be made clear. We already have MORE tavern licenses on H st then they do on Adams Morgan. The issue there isn't about granting licences, it's about enforcement. Heaven and Hell is a restaurant, enough said. They are using the ban to put pressure on existing establishments. It's a VERY different situation there, and they will admit that if all the laws were enforced it would be a disaster (they have about 75 establishments acting as taverns), but they know it won't be enforced, so the ban and putting pressure is the only weapon they have.
I don't want to turn into adams morgan, but we will have a lot of opportunities to act before H st comes close to resembling adams morgan.
A good lesson from adams morgan is the importance of enforcement. All the taverns have signed voluntary agreements with us, and it's important to ensure they are following the agreements and the rules for their license class and not let things get so far out of hand as it did in adams morgan.
I have said at meetings many times that I believe this discussion is premature. One day this hopefully will be an important discussion, but I feel that we need to see how the corridor develops before we can make an intelligent estimate of how many bars are enough. I think it may have a chilling effect on all types of commerce if the neighborhood is seen as hostile to economic development. I think commercial development outside of taverns are counting on the foot traffic/notoriety that taverns bring to the area. The argument for the steps that an area has to take (roughly first bars, then restaurants, then retail) has been made many times on this forum so I won't repeat it, but i think taverns are an important base. I also think we have too many vacant store fronts to think about a ban.
One option is to have a ban that is far higher then what we have now...that has been proposed, but in my opinion that is a discussion that should be had when we are closer to the proposed cap and see what the concerns of the community are then.
So I encourage everyone to come to this meeting and have your voice and opinion heard. If no one comes out to say they want development to continue, there will be many people who are there calling for a cap, and that will be the voice of the neighborhood, and the wheels will be in motion.
If you can't come to the meeting, please email with your opinion at jmarcus@gmail.com and I will make every effort to read what you have written during the meeting. Please at least identify what part of the ANC you live in.
Happy to try to answer any other questions people may have.
Adam Smith:
Were you joking about having a law that said a person could only own a certain number of H Street businesses?
I'm fairly certain that'd never pass the laugh test, legally.
The H Street Connection is perhaps our best shot at a parking garage. The developers want a fairly massive development. Perhaps the trade-off for going along is that they include a large public garage, mostly underground (with really good lighting and security), and integrated into the streetfront with ground floor retail. It'd be easy enough to segregate out the cost for the garage part itself. I assume the DC government subsidizes parking garages in other areas..... if so, they could subsidize this one.
And allowing them a large residential development there helps with the density issue Richard Layman discussed..... frankly, we just don't have enough people living on or near H Street to support some of the grand dreams we have.
And building a parking garage would open up H Street as an option for the rest of us Hill folks that live on the Hill but not within a reasonable walk to H Street. Yes, I'm sure some would say we should walk everywhere. But that simply isn't realistic. A lot of us on the Hill simply aren't going to walk ten to twenty blocks each way to frequent H Street businesses. But we would drive there if we thought we could park in a garage.
Integration with the $$ and residential numbers on the rest of the Hill seems to be something we never talk about. I've often wondered why that is.
I wholeheartely agree with the post by, was it Joe Engler?(I can't follow who is who on this blog), that states: we don't have people in economic development who understand how to develop a vibrant urban area. So we get "parking your rump in Vegas" (and hoping that Office Depot will move in and calling that "retail"), leasing to law firms and lobbyists and businesses that sell liqour(because they can all afford the rents). I have been on several discussions and have asked what the global plan is for H Street. Some one downtown referred me to the H Street Plan...it called for the center core to be retail....but that to be successful it had to be the right mix. End of discussion of retail in the H Street Plan.
I asked a very close friend who works for a large developer in the area...how does an area like Clarendon happen? The first words out of his mouth were "well, Virginia is alot friendlier to development than the District(except if you are a lobbying firm, law ofice or sell liqour). The NYTimes reports that for shopping DC is a wasteland. Get off the metro at Friendship Heights, face west...look north and then look south. Enough said.
The person who posted looking at all these great urban areas...Austin,etc, and I would add the Pearl in Portland, Oregon, is right on. We can't even approach that kind of thinking. Those kinds of areas don't develop out of luck. There is some sort of bigger picture at work.
H Street has so much potential, but when we have people on the Hill who are crying about the possibility of GAP on 8th because it is a chain and there is not enough on 8th to shop anyway...they are attacking the wrong entity. They should be going after public officials to put the right stuff in place, so you can have GAP and the small businesses. They could only enhance each other. I'm not advocating GAP....I take any small creative business, anything at this point.
I'm relieved to see others feel the same way about a moratorium. We were shocked when this flier landed on our porch.
Yes, maybe there should be a discussion of a moratorium or a cap two years from now. But H Street right now has nowhere near the thriving business it needs.
Clarendon is not a great model if you want independent businesses - it dominated by chains and many small business have been disappeared - hardware store now an Irish pub, ice cream shop closed down etc. I'm also not so keen on allowing a "massive development" on the site of the H St connection in exchange for a "subsidized" parking garage - H St. I thought we were trying to move toward more public trasporation and less driving.
Clarendon is one kind of model, Austin, the Pearl in Portland is another. If you notice, both were mentioned. The point is that other places seem to pick a vision and are able to get it done. I would prefer something like the Pearl, but I would take Clarendon. It would keep my dollars in the city.
I do agree that parking is needed. Again, other places seem to be able to determine what is needed and make it happen. I don't why this is so hard in DC.
So many comments.
1. I've got five on a ferris wheel fund.
2. Parking is such a tricky balance. I'll be honest, I have an instinctive bias against it. On the one hand, I appreciate the need to make the corridor more accessible to outsiders. On the other, not only does increased parking directly subsidizes people getting to the corridor in a less sustainable fashion than some might hope, but increased parking (or road) capacity inevitably leads not to less parking difficulties, but to increased demand for parking, and more strain on the infrastructure.
What I'd love to see is a costly parking garage with proceeds supporting increased public transportation accessibility in the corridor.
3. I'd like to second the comment about the Pearl District in Portland. The difference there (or one of the many differences) is that the area has significant links between streetcar, light rail, and bus - though limited parking. Portland is a model of transportation infrastructure interconnectivity, and DC in general is a long way away from that, not just H Street.
4. I want to thank Mr. (Ms.?) Marcus for taking the time to post here - it was very informative. I'd like to raise the point that it seems unbelievable to me that people are pointing to bars on H Street as the sources of trash and rodents, noise, and public drunkenness and urination. Considering what I saw walking down H 2.5 years ago as compared to now makes these concerns almost laughable. As was discussed earlier on this forum, it's not VA teens at RnR pissing all over the streets, and it's not Belgian ale houses causing noise issues on H.
Joe,
You are ahead of the times in most things. That makes you a good business man, but you are also ahead of the times with this proposed moritorium. A moritorium right now will only serve to stiffle growth.
Why have you suggested it? Are your business making money? Are they not making money? This could be really bad PR for you.
Joe Englert said:
Many of you are NOT paying attention to what I am suggesting.
Limit the number of tavern and nightclub licenses so you will not have the rowdiness and parking problems later.
And I am suggesting limiting the number of alcohol licenses that have restaurant licenses but not at a low number. As said before, pick a good number 25, 35, 50. What would the problem be with a whopping 33% of all real estate on H being places that served food? You then have a chance for 120 other type of businesses to thrive and to have a chance at having activity morning, noon, afternoon and night!
I have been one of the first people in a neighborhood numerous times---U St, 15th St, below Connecticut. All of them have one thing in common--lots of food and liquor but hardly any other retail.
Why should the city repeat the same mistakes over and over again?
And at the end of the day, you would still have say 5 nightclubs, 15 taverns and 30-50 restaurants. Why wouldn't that be enough?
I like to fish, but it doesn't mean I have to catch 50 bass every time I go fishing.
Also, I am not an absolutist. Give me some reasons why there shouldn't be some sort of plan on developing H and I could change my mind.
The Clarendon comparison isn't really an equal one as the underlying zoning allows for much denser--far bigger and taller--buildings than in any area of DC, even downtown. Because they don't have historic protections, many of the historic buildings are endangered by demolition, and many have been lost.
Clarendon has othter problems too, especially that superbuildings have created superblocks, not to mention the loss of authenticity issue. I actually was asked to do a presentation there last December, although my sense is the momentum of superbuildings, superblocks, and chains is probably unstoppable at this point, the presentation had a lot of impact.
Hillman, Adam Smith was a free market philosopher. the proposed limit was a tongue-in-cheek suggestion that consumers will ultimately decide what types of businesses H street will support.
When I hear "limit liquor licenses" I can't help but think of who was protesting Vegetate and Queen of Sheba getting their licenses. Just sayin.
In fairness to Joe Englert, I didn't see anywhere in the flyer or information flying around about this topic that says that he suggested, prompted or lobbied for the meeting / possible limitations on the number of bars.
Based on the active role that 6A has taken with respect to single sales, I think the fair (and correct) implication is that this issue was raised independently by 6A's licensing committee.
Perhaps Jim can provide some insight on the genesis of this idea.
For the record, for many of the reasons already mentioned, I think requesting a moratorium or some other formal limit at this point is way premature. To say that the corridor has reached saturation or has been fully revitalized is, well, beyond a stretch.
Having a conversation now and preparing for future conditions makes some sense, but anything beyond that at this early date strikes me as premature and would actually chill further development along the corridor--not just of bars, but also of the types of establishments that people are clamoring for.
You can't get all the shops/coffeehouses/sitdown restaruants/etc. if no one comes to H Street because "it's that place that everyone says is bad" and they have no direct knowledge from say, knowing someone who has gone to the H Street entertainment district.
My 2 cents.
Best,
Alan Kimber
ANC Commissioner, 6C05
I thought Poo Poo would have more to say on this... Oh well.
Let's be real here; Adams Morgan/Columbia Heights has never been a good area of town. The fact is that the muggings and other violence is not a direct result of the expansion of bars in that neighborhood. It's only gotten to this point because there are more people there for longer periods of time during the day. Penn Quarter(I laugh at this name every time I write it. I know that most of the people moving into those condos are white, but they can still call it Chinatown, can't they?) is feeling the same effects right now. More people living in an area dominated by homeless shelters and bars does not a yuppie part of town make.
I agree with Joe, and the ABC board member. Putting a cap on the amount of bars NOW will save us a lot of headaches in the long run. It seems fairly reasonable to set a limit, 33% of the retail spaces for example, for bars and nightlife.
Parking will need to be included in this plan as well if this development boom is going to happen like people think. I plan to stay in this area for a while. I'd to have to move because I can't get my car out of my driveway on Sunday Mornings, or even come home Saturday night with a billigerent bridge and tunnel yuppie complaining about the parking situation while banging up my car.
Oh, and by the way, it's 8th and "EL", not "EYE"
Thanks for your time.
Why do we think this would turn out any differently than limiting the number of "Fast Food" restaurants on the corridor?
8th and "el" -
i do have plenty to say about this.
apparently, folks want to put caps on lots of stuff going on in the corridor.
that's all great. i'm all for caps. i think shitty "fast food" joints should be capped just as much as tavern licenses should. not just because it's a quick fatty meal for folks that can't afford to sit down and pay a lot for a meal, but because i personally think they're crap.
oh, and fyi, i'm no yuppie, and yes, i complain about the area in many of the ways you mention. in this country, complaining is a good thing. it's why you're not living in a british colony.
you say you have a car. hell, i say cap cars on h street too! we don't need you lazy wealthy folks to clog the streets and the air with your expensive-gasoline-driven pollution. i bet you could use a bit of walking around....
while we're at it, why not cap the public urinals? (read: alleys)
heck yeah, caps are starting to sound pretty good!
let's cap the number of vacant properties in the area that can be developed into something other than a roach motel and rat getaway? cuz after all, animals have feelings too. let's respect their rights!
why do so many people have a problem with not capping bars? because we all know that if that happens, the GAP, and Linens and Things will DEFINITELY be jumping at the opportunity to move into h street!
i think i'm gonna get a cap with H STREET sewn on the front, just to make my point about capping the hood.
if they only would have capped this place in 1969, this place would be a paradise!
That's the Poo Poo we all love! I have to say I'm becoming a dork for this page too.
No, not rich. No, don't drive everyday. I want bring up the neighborhood just like every other homeowner around here. I also don't want to lose this neighborhood to over ambitious developers and transient politicos like those South of Maryland (No offense if you are a local and live out there, of course)
goober! :o)
i think we actually may be on the same page....
nice to have a fellow dork on board. ;op
i think we all just want the best for this neighborhood, but yikes is it hard!!!
especially when everyone has 'the answer'. ugh...
on the upside, this area has so much potential to be the most dynamic, diverse, and influential neighborhood in the district.
and THAT is what i vote for.
i've even changed my opinion a bit about the florida market. maybe we should preserve the nature of the place...... to some degree.
funny how the dialogue on this blog can actually impact folks....
oh, and i definitely live in the district, and will for a very long time...
i love this city. maybe that's why i'm such a dork!
El -
Let us not forget that if you're on 15th or 16th, South of Maryland isn't that far South.
It’s time for poo-poo to unmask. I like the comments, I hate them. Sometimes I laugh, sometimes I cringe. Ah, well; I say to him, and hope you do too: out of your underwear, into the streets! Out of your basement, into the streets! Out of your booze, into the streets!
Aside from that unsolicited diatribe, I might suggest that its time to give far more respectful comments to Joe Englert rather than dashing off a cavlier email. If you want communication with a community businessman, you’ve got it -- he communicates - - so let’s avoid the inflammatory accusations and listen before judging; ask him questions first before condemning. We wouldn’t be so rude if we were talking to him face to face in private, instead of anonymous emails. If you seek more successful attraction of people to commercial enterprises on H Street, he appears to be succeeding; why trash him? Wasn’t improved commerce what was sought? If you want someone personsally invested in DC to invest rather than some nameless omnipotent omnipresent megacorporation, is he not who we would have preferred, if faced the choice? He doesn’t own an empire, few entrepreneurs do; why suggest he has some sort of evil plan? If you want someone to risk money on a tentative venture, and H street frankly stil remains tentative from investors(conservative, all), then are you willing to allow his risk? He pays the first price for any miscalculation; if he fails, future investors will hesitate.
Frankly, I don’t even know the man. But for god’s sake, with the classic vitriol of cyberpsace postings aside, give the man some level of credit.
In its heyday, if you were 30 years old and enjoyed the H Street Corridor, it's decimation in the riots means you are now pushing 70 years old. That’s how much time has passed of neglect. And the people who stayed need to be a part, and Joe's places attract all, if you've been there. We all want it reinvigorated, and that means we want it welcoming for everyone. And that’s the real question - -what does reinvigoration mean. Planning is important – to learn from mistakes without squelching movement forward Don’t lose the forest for the trees.
This post is probably more relevant - shows how few non-liquor store licenses there are in the H Street area when compared with more affluent neighborhoods like downtown, Dupont Circle, and even U Street:
http://goodspeedupdate.com/2007/2053
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