This one is a somewhat contentious issue, and I may, unfortunately, have to miss the ANC meeting to attend this hearing. If I do so, it's because I believe that this project has ramifications that extend beyond this particular proposed structure, and that it will profoundly impact both southern sections of ANC 5B, ANC 5A, ANC 6C, and even the more distant ANC 6A. Basically, this is the first brick in a New Town redux. The overall land is massive, even if this particular project is not. I would encourage anyone, even if you do not agree with me, or do not yet have an opinion, to attend this Zoning Commission hearing.
First the vitals on the hearing-
When: Thursday 6:30pm
Where: Second Floor in Room 220 South at:
One Judiciary Square
441 4th Street, NW
Washington, DC 20001
Joe, an owner of All African, who hopes to open a restaurant at the Market, but hesitates to do so because of the uncertain future of the Market.
A few important things to know-
-this is a Planned Unit Development [PUD], which is why it goes before the Zoning Commission, rather than BZA.
One of the many businesses that purchases goods in the Market.
-the proposal started out asking for a 4 story building, then an 11, and is now asking for a 10 story building. This would be a very tall building for this location. Current zoning does not allow for anything near this height [119 feet].
An employee of Caribbean Crescent, which sells Middle Eastern food, showcases their lentil selection.
A 2006 photo of the long vacant lots.
-these parcels of land, which have been vacant for years, are not being taxed at the vacant rate. So really, they've already got a sort of de-facto tax abatement.
Don Pepe's Bakery and Cafe, a business that recently opened in the Market. They serve Latin baked goods, and Salvadorian food.
-this building is catty-corner to Two Rivers Charter School.
At Obeng, which deal in pan-African goods, one can purchase fresh veggies, a variety of rices, smoked goat, and many more items.
-this building is a mixed use development including retail [as yet unspecified], offices, and 116 residential units. I'm concerned about the residential units because, due to its location, the building will have semi-trucks passing by to enter the market on three sides 6 days a week beginning as early as 3am. Current zoning [C-M-1] does not allow for residential use with the exception of artist live-work lofts, or housing for janitors/caretakers of respective properties.
Paul Pascal, counsel for the Market Merchants group, and and President of the Capitol Hill BID, speaks to a group touring the Market.
-this proposed building would contain around 20 percent housing affordable to those earning no more that 80 percent of the Area Median Income. Really, that isn't so impressive as far as affordable housing goes.
Meats for sale in the Market.
-this proposed building would include underground parking for 188 cars [81 for residential tenants, 39 for office tenants, and 34 for retail tenants], and 44 bicycle spaces.
Restocking at Litteri's, an Italian merchant that has served the community since the 1920s. Photo by Ken Firestone.
-this proposed building would, of course, be located near the metro, and thus, serve certain objectives for Transit Oriented Development. I love transit oriented development, but I have reservations about this particular project, and its implications.
You really can get any kind of meat product in the Market, even chicken feet.
You can also get great Korean food.
-Councilmember Harry Thomas recently proposed legislation, which is still in Committee, to give a large tax abatement to this property owner, Mr. Sang Oh Choi. Mr. Choi owns various parcels in the Florida Market, and has obtained the financial backing of Apollo Real Estate Advisors [a group out of New York]. He is represented by former Councilmember John Ray, who you may remember from the slot machine initiative.
The Market is a thriving local and regional business district with some retail, but primarily wholesale businesses.
-Recently there was a meeting held at Gallaudet to which the Office of Planning, J Street Development [which also owns large swaths of land in the Florida Market], Mr. Choi's group, and local ANCs were invited. The ANCs were later uninvited per the Office of the Deputy Mayor. This has been said to be due to pressure from John Ray.
The Market is a place where churches, families, and individuals all shop to get great deals regardless of the size of their group.
-While the record for other developers in the Market area, like J Street, has been quite good in terms of reaching out to the local ANCs and community, this has not been the case for Mr. Choi's group. As such, it is unclear to me why we should allow this developer the special privilege of circumventing the Office of Planning's Small Area Plan [which is not yet complete, but is near completion], when everyone who has behaved better is required to wait for the Small Area Plan to wrap up.
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UPDATE
I forgot to mention that the only community benefits mentioned in the tax abatement bill are things like an ANC office for 5B [already mentioned in the PUD agreement] and a 5-D substation that the police have repeatedly said they don't want. So, it looks a bit like a give away.
--------------------------
UPDATE
I forgot to mention that the only community benefits mentioned in the tax abatement bill are things like an ANC office for 5B [already mentioned in the PUD agreement] and a 5-D substation that the police have repeatedly said they don't want. So, it looks a bit like a give away.
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47 comments:
Inked, some questions....to have a PUD you have to "negotiate" with the community for amenitites in order to get relief for some of the things you want in your PUD. Who is the community here? I am in ANC 6A and I know they have been very active in things on H Street(and 6C with Dreyfuss). Isn't there a height restriction in the District? Do you know what that restriction is and how does the 10 story building measure up?
ANC 6C abuts this development and has asked the development team to come to the Planning/Zoning/Environment meeting tomorrow night:
Wed. June 4
6:30 pm (Gateway probably on about 8)
NPR, 635 Mass Ave NW
It's the midnight hour and we had to seek them out as they did zero outreach to 6C.
Anne Phelps, 6C04
could someone explain the difference between this post, and this form one of the listserves:
"On Wednesday, June 4th, the ANC will be discussing the Gateway Market & Residences project. This proposal is for a large-scale development immediately across the street in Ward 5 at 4th and Florida. This Planned Unit Development (PUD) project calls for rezoning the lot from manufacturing to mixed-use (residential, office, retail) in a 10-story building on the Florida Avenue side.
The meeting will be held at:
NPR National Public Radio
635 Massachusetts Avenue NE
Wednesday, June 4, 2008
immediately following the Zoning Committee meeting
(approximately 8:00 pm)"
Thanks-
-confused home owner
thank goodness this is finally moving forward. it's been forever since we've had any movement.
typical dc, it'll likely take forever, but it's nice to see it on track.
The thing that I find disgusting is the tax abatement. What could possibly be the reason for that?
Developers don't need incentives like that...it's not like Mississippi vs. Tennessee for a Toyota plant. This guy isn't going anywhere & he's dying to do this project. The city shouldn't subsidize him.
Generally I'm pro-development, but all this gives me a pretty uneasy feeling. For one, with all the residential space being proposed, I have a hard time seeing it getting leased up or sold...the Senate Square project is obviously in trouble and I can't believe that in the current climate it makes sense to go ahead with more residential development in this area.
It seems to me that all these big plans are at least several years too early, and I'd hate to see it all get built up and then tank. Not to mention I don't see any evidence that what's currently on the Florida Market site isn't viable and useful right now.
i'm so happy we'll get rid of these vacant properties, and get them taxed at the proper rate, while providing housing for folks that have money, and those that may not. it's so much better than sitting there vacant and providing free-for-all territory for drug dealers and prostitutes. and PLEASE don't say that's not the case. i pass through there every night. most of you don't. i'm even willing to bet you avoid going through there at night, let alone in the daytime. uh huh. i thought so.
let's get this place market up to date, stop the stench and move into the current century.
yes, let's keep the ambience, but YES, let's get this underutilized parcel in line with the rest of the city!
i dunno about you folks, but i've been here since early '95. the rest of the city is moving on, i dunno why folks are adamant about keeping northeast underutilized, underserviced, and undereducated. is that really *so* granola?
nuh uh.
it's backwards.
I've got mixed feelings on this. I sortof like the little buildings currently there and it's nice to see the oddball businesses there.
And Litteri's is quite cool.
But let's be honest. This is a very poor use for very prime real estate, and most of these businesses really don't serve the immediate area, in the sense that they aren't really primarily retail establishments.
I've always wondered why a lot of these businesses are located here anyway. I know the area was the hood, and I'm sure rents were cheap. But that was then. And this is now. Things change. I'm betting there's far more inexpensive wholesale business space in dozens of locations in suburban Maryland.
If we really are serious about public transit oriented development we have to be willing to give up something, like outdated 2 story wholesale businesses with outrageously good metro access.
And once you go up even a level or two the views have got to be stunning.
Maybe there's a way to preserve some of the market spaces, encourage more retail, and still build some residential? But we'd need to pay special attention to the design, which we will live with for decades. No ugly square boxes 10 stories high. Yes, some height is necessary, but break it up and make it visually interesting, since it will be (if built) a very prominent building.
As for people being hesitant to live in a market area, I think you'd be surprised at how sound-proofing technology has progressed in recent years. I think people would jump at the chance to live at this location.
Wow, thats a lot of white people in the pictures. We love the market as it is. Yes, it could use some improvements, but not a overhaul of the culture or businesses. We've been going to this market for years and looking at these photos you'd think it was Harris Teeter.
BOO on this change!
Confused Homeowner, the listserv announcement is for the ANC 6C planning committee. The blog post is for the zoning hearing.
Cool. I've always wanted them to build Reston in D.C. I'm surprised poo poo's such a big Reston fan, but maybe I shouldn't be.
Here's my rant that I know will be unpopular but whatever. How does DC spend $2 million to provide a temporary eastern market after the fire and yet is willing to let a real market get shut down on purpose. This is a market for restaurant owners and the non-wealthy. It looks and smells like a real operating market and that's why the yuppies opt out. Eastern Market is a Disney version of a market. Not so much the farmer vendors outside but the people inside who have laughing all the way to the bank cashing in thier huge markups. Real people can't afford to feed their families shopping at Eastern Market. Going to Eastern Market and patting yourself on the back for having a down-home market experience is like going to the International Section of Epcot and telling everyone you went on a European vacation.
-keep the real market (or, better yet, both)
Seems to me this would fit in well with the Gateway development across the tracks. Having high density next to Metro makes plenty of sense. The area can certainly use some more people with disposable income who can support local retail that we all want and who are not reliant on heavy social supports. And at 10 floors it would not be higher than the buildings planned for the triangular lot bordered by the tracks, NY Ave and FL Ave.
JD
I live North of H Street and am about an 8 minute walk from the Florida market. I've tried on several occasions to make this market my place to buy produce (since it's the closest place to me that sells veggie's etc) but inevitably I find their "fresh" vegetables anything but "fresh". The aspargus and lettuce are wilted, the mushrooms browned and the zuccini and squash are soft and on the verge of spoil. I find myself expecting to find a rat anytime I stick my hand into a box to check out the veggies. I just don't get what we are trying to save here. Next time you're in Philadelphia or Seattle take the time to visit their market and you'll never spend another minute at the Florida Market. Their produce is vibrant, fresh and is presented in a way that makes you want to spend the whole day taking it all in. You can walk around the market and eat lunch in clean establishments of all varietes and the meat and fish are so fresh you'd actually have to put your nose an inch away to detect any scent at all. If you walk thru the Florida Market you have to take your shoes off before you enter your home so that you don't track blood and skank that flows out of the vendors garbage cans all over your floor stinking up your house. I'm sorry but I find a large part of the Florida Market disgusting and I'm somewhat leary about what I'd be ingesting if I ate their produce etc. At night it host prostitutes and drug dealers and who knows what else. That being said Letteri's is fantastic and I hope they're around for another 100 years. Fill the market with stores of their quality and offer viable, fresh produce and meat, keep the sidewalks clean and deoderize the area and maybe then we should think about saving the market. Hell, don't save it, reinvent it!!
amkindc, the community is ANC5B, but ANC6C is getting involved because they are clearly impacted by this development. I'm not sure what the height restriction for DC is [I think it is more of an unwritten thing], but this building, at 119 feet, is shorter than many buildings downtown.
To some the later comments-
I think almost everyone believes that change in the Florida Market is both desirable and necessary. It's just a matter of what kind of changes are made, and the process by which they are made.I'm pro-development, but I think that current vendors, landowners, Gallaudet University, the ANCs, and impacted residents should have a voice. I also think that our Office of Planning should have a large role in the process. I object to the idea of an inexperienced and unproven developer, who tried to sneak an eminent domain proposal through the back door when he thought no one was watching, getting preferential treatment over Gallaudet, and developers with proven track records like J Street.
Here, here, Inked. Local residents and elected officials desperate for development often get hoodwinked into subsidizing get-rich-quick schemes. Whatever is built there will be there for generations. While we all want the vacant lots replaced by actual businesses and residents (4th and H St. Trader Joes, anyone?), patience and deliberation is a paramount virtue here.
I say let them build it. I think for the reasons that others have stated here, the Market as it stands now will eventually meet its demise. It is across the street from a Metro station. Most of the businesses are not open to the public and therefore don't serve the local resident's interest.
I've gone to the market a few times, but it is always dirty and there is garbage everywhere. I suspect that most of the business owners there are looking for space elsewhere.
I tell you what- Just with the addition of the new ATF building and the Marriott Hotel- It has changed the scenery driving into our corrider. It would be awesome to have all this development around our neighborhood instead of all the depressing sights that currently stand in place on Fl Ave. I've never gone to the Market area...But if it was to be redeveloped I'm sure I won't mind the 8-10minute walk from Trinidad to hang out and shop over there.
I'm thinking Columbia Heights 5 years ago compare today--Amazingly different feeling while driving on 14th street.
I'll probably be keeping an eye out as far as purchasing a residential unit as well...
Trinidad Home Owner
DC Police to Seal Off Trinidad
http://dcist.com/2008/06/04/mpd_to_seal_off.php
If places like Litteri and Obeng and Carribean Crescent and so forth were still around after the development, I'd be excited.
But they won't be, and everyone knows it. They won't be because they won't fit into the boring, character-less condominium wonderland that's envisioned. So instead, we'll get a lot of ugly, uninteresting looking buildings with the same stores and shops that are everywhere else. A mini-Crystal City. It won't be so scary at night, and it'll definitely be cleaner; but it'll be just as ugly (only in different way), and there'll also be no reason for anyone that doesn't live there to go there. And the few things that are cool about the Market and are worth preserving will be lost.
Inked points are well taken. I did remember that a PUD is allowed to build higher in exchange for community amenities. I thought that "the community" through the ANC and civic groups were to negotiate those with the developer(design is also considered here), not have them folded into a tax abatement bill by the councilmember.
My recollection is that both 6c and 6a are very avtive in negotiating these things with the developments on H. The Dreyfuss agreement was recently published in the CHRS newsletter and thousands and thousands of dollars were negotiated for the good of the surrounding community.
When you drive back from Home Depot along 6th Street NE (heading south towards Florida), you see one of the most spectacular views of the city as you pass Penn Street, NE. The Capitol's dome, the Washington Monument, Arlington Cemetery... it is a great view. Of course the dilapidated buildings and chain linked fences around Florida Market spoil part of the shot. I'm strongly in favor of redeveloping that entire area into dense mixed use buildings. I'd like to see a public space left though, so as to enable neighbors, visitors, and whomever a great view of the District.
tear it down and build it back up. it is the only way DC will ever become better. new development equals new oppertunities which will change neighborhoods. seems too many people want DC to stay in its current shitty state that has been since part of its population burnt it down to the ground back in 1968. stop resisting change and embrace it only way to clean up this city.......
Mr. Fenty Tear down this wall
"dc resi fla ave"'s idea of change we shouldn't resist is this: get rid of the bad parts *and* the good parts, and replace them both with applebee's.
brilliant.
Trinidad homeboy ... awesome!
where can i get some of what layman's been smoking! i want to be comfortably numb too!
Granted, the buildings for the market are in dire need of improvement; sanitation is lacking; yep, the parking is challenging; and, yes, this is prime real estate. DC is in desperate need of a proper, high-standard, permanent freshmarket. Many of the shop owners at this particular market own their properties and pass those savings on to all those shoppers who think these places are so 'cool'. Are you willing to pay more? Certainly the shop owners and staff would prefer more sanitary conditions. Those buildings that are ruining the view of the Capitol (such a superficial concern, 'anonymous') are full of hard-working people who have devoted a portion of their lives and savings to provide 'ethnic' foods to people who think these products are sufficiently important to risk the negligent drivers in the 'parking lot'. That 'ruined view' is a treasured sign of dc to someone who has lived here longer than many of those writing in. Cities aren't perfect. That's what suburbs are for. The issue is sanitation, work conditions, higher quality standards for products and safety and not the aesthetic preferences of someone driving home from Home Depot (which, btw, makes you wealthier than most of those people shopping at that market). In this economy, these places are increasingly important. Why not stop in and see what it's all about, focus on the positives and change what's best rather than wanting to make everything so homogenous, a la the rest of DC, which is basically a soul-less city full of bland govt buildings, generic glass replacements, and people living here temporarily and complain that it doesn't look like 'home'. It's not supposed to.
"a la the rest of DC, which is basically a soul-less city full of bland govt buildings, generic glass replacements, and people living here temporarily and complain that it doesn't look like 'home'."
Then why are you even here?
Your post hinges on a few false premises.
First, your premise that if these businesses relocated the poor shoppers you speak of would be shit out of luck and would apparently just wither up in the street and die, right before our eyes.
Most of the market is wholesale. These shoppers aren't exactly poor people, generally.
As for the retail shoppers, I'd be surprised if more than maybe 10% of them live in this neighborhood. If even that many, given that this neighborhood isn't really all that ethnically diverse. Most come here from other neighborhoods.
Granted, I'm not at these markets everyday. But most of the transactions I've seen there involve shoppers in cars. They could just as easily drive somewhere else to get these goods. Somewhere cheaper.
I'm not really seeing the 'we must preserve this for the poor' argument, either on practical or philosophical grounds.
Artificially restricting very high dollar real estate so that the poor immigrant community can come here to shop isn't really a convincing argument. Especially since many of these goods are already sold in the immigrant communities these folks live in.
And you are presenting the idea of redevelopment in a fairly stunted manner - suggesting that it has to be some huge bland 'suburban' mess.
What you fail to point out is that this could be redeveloped in a very good way, with a preservation and improvement of the more useful aspects of the market, cutting down on the negatives (like the crime), creating a whole bunch more opportunities for people to live a 'green' lifestyle in new dwellings with great metro access, etc.
As for your denigration of the importance of the world-class view, I mentioned the view originally as part of the dollar value of the property and how that dollar value is being wasted currently. It has a very real dollar value (and taxable dollar value) if developed.
I'm not saying I'm in favor of the current development plans. I'm just saying that good development of the site might be a good thing, especially if we really are dedicated to building more sustainable and eco-friendly living close to Metro stations.
Anon - 12:32:00 AM
I was not saying that at all. I actually love the market and purchase beef from Jay at Florida beef, Pork from Hartman's and Italian staples from Littiteri.
What I meant to say was tear it down and build it back up. Allow the same suppliers to have their space. This way it will clean up the neighborhood, put law abiding, tax paying citizens in the residential space.
What is more important to me is pushing the trash out of that area and cleaning it up with a new development
PS - HATE APPLEBEES - HATE ALL THOSE TGI McFUNSTER CORP FOOD ESTABLISHMENTS
hillman writes: "And you are presenting the idea of redevelopment in a fairly stunted manner - suggesting that it has to be some huge bland 'suburban' mess.
"What you fail to point out is that this could be redeveloped in a very good way, with a preservation and improvement of the more useful aspects of the market, cutting down on the negatives (like the crime), creating a whole bunch more opportunities for people to live a 'green' lifestyle in new dwellings with great metro access, etc."
Everything you say above is true, in terms of what's possible. But many people aren't negative about development there as a general concept, but rather the specific project that's the subject of this Frozen Tropics article. I think the concern many voice here stems from the idea that Mr. Choi's intentions don't seem anything like your description at all.
I believe a good start would be to get rid of all of the thugs here that sell drugs, break in cars, shoot and kill each other, vandalize, loiter etc. I say we ship them away like the British did with their criminals when they sent them to what we know as Australia.
Could be a real fun case study.
1 - all the people on the island will kill each other
2 - all of the people would die from a drug overdose
3 - all the people of the island will drink singles, loiter all day, urinate and defecate on each other
4 - actually build a nice sustainable society.
After that develop develop develop and get DC back on the map as a respectable city that is self sustaining and actually lives up to its reputation around the Nation and World.
The only way to have any effect on this development is to attend the zoning hearing and get on record, and get involved with the ANCs to force negotiation for what you all want. Posting theory and ideas will get you nowhere.
Chris, you raise a valid point. I'd like very much to see more detail on the actual proposed plan.
And I am proposing the 'what if' rather than what may or may not (and apparently is not) in the Choi plan.
But so many are seeing this as his plan or no plan, and that's not necessarily how it has to be.
his plan or no plan?
yeah, that's true.
just look at all the developers chomping at the bits to get in there and do something. right.
it's been eons since anyone has addressed the market, and if choi goes, it'll be eons longer before anyone steps up.
you may not give a crap if the market is redeveloped in your life time, richard. you don't even live around here anyway. you left the hood a while back, so i have to question your exuberant commitment to the area in general.
i want to see the market change while i'm still alive.
and i see the place a hell of a lot more than the cutsie weekend 'newbie-come-and-let's-embrace-this-trash-site' tours.
it's a very messed up place, as anyone that's been there knows.
some 'politicians' in nearby areas have to embrace the market status quo, or they don't get re-elected.
but even their nabes are changing, and demanding more.
enough.
let's clean the chingadero up!
btw, were any of you folks around when the children's museum went through the process to become what it is now - a fantastic development where anthony williams will live, as well one of the founders of BET.
plenty of people wanted it to be a bunch of crap, including a recreational area for locals, a homeless shelter (as it once was, eons ago), a school, etc.
imagine that place as a craphole now?
would that have benefited the area, let alone WASHINGTON, DC in general? no.
i urge folks to give their input, but the place is going to change. albeit, not soon enough.
Boy Anon 3:36, you sure seem to know a lot of about me. Apparently I'm newbie rich snob who drives by the market with a car full of expensive items from Home Depot, thumbing my nose at all the poor people who are struggling to provide my neighborhood with "ethnic" delights while dodging cars in the parking lot.
Get real.
You have a prime piece of real estate that is clearly underutilized and one of the drags on the area as a whole. That piece of property has tremendous potential. For starters, consider the nearness and access to both the Metrorail and bus systems, as well as major automobile thoroughfares. Add to that the proximity of new development as well as the views of downtown and you've got a sure deal. It's people like you who attempt to hold the city back from becoming something more due to your perceived notions that everyone making under 35K is a victim.
When was the last time you were in the market? Me? Last weekend. What did I see? A bunch of cheap, knock-off Nationals merchandise and cars with MD plates. I suppose I could have let loose and purchased 5 t-shirts for $10 – there were a few stands where I could have done this – but we Home Depot shoppers have more refined tastes.
anon 7:16
trying to convey your point (which is well taken by me) to the staunch "keep the status quo" folks, is akin to pissing in the wind. they don't want to get your point, so they won't.
i think the tactic for us "pro change for the better" folks is to adopt their style.
was it inked (or some wanna-stay-like-it-is person), who actually voiced concern about the potential TENANTS of the new building, and how concerned they were about the big rambling trucks that go through the market and how it would adversely affect them.
yeah, like it would affect the potential tenants, and not the existing kids at the existing school, kitty corner to the building - or the other neighbors that actually live in the surrounding neighborhood.
they choose 'bleeding heart' argument of convenience to make their point. we need to do the same, but our case is stronger. let's get rid of the disasterous trucks and make housing for people who desire/need it. let's make it safe for those school kids not to get run over by trucks. let's get rid of the crime (look up the shooting at the nightclub right next door to the proposed development, as well as the rest of the crimes that constantly occur in that area).
another concern i've heard, "the building is too tall". yeah. that really freaks me out, and the crazier part is that it adds underground parking to the area! holy crap, i'm offended! more parking in the area! what are these developers thinking?! (that was sarcastic for you literal minded readers).
my car has been dinged, i've had to wipe blood off of my car from a fight, witnessed a prostitute being arrested, etc. all in that area, at night on the weekends.
i don't dig all these people that go out in 'tours' in big groups, during weekends that claim this place is the cat's meow.
it's not.
in any other aspiring city, this place would have been changed a long time ago.
reminds me of that crackhead mayor of dc that wanted to keep everything the way it is for the folks that are.
for those folks, i say, move to nicaragua.
the nation's capitol deserves better.
the neighborhood deserves better.
the children deserve better.
out with the old, and in with the new.
Poo Poo, maybe you should try attending a community meeting once in a while. If you had been to even one of the meetings concerning the Market you would know that Choi is far from the only game in town. You would also know that if you had read the post carefully. Gaullaudet is working on developing its own land but there are some real developers who have purchased land in the Market and are working on development plans. J Street is only one example. Unlike Choi, J Street is a real development group in that they've actually developed something before. And FYI, there is definitely lots of interest in Market properties right now. You totally missed the mark on this one. By the way, we got a continuance at the hearing, and the Zoning Commission had lots of interesting things to say about the proposed building.
That is what I find so curious about these posts sometimes. People just start pontificating without ever having attended a meeting, understanding the process or know what they are really commenting on.
For God's sakes, Mr. Poo, is there ever a time where you treat people who disagree with you with respect? Where you respond to those with a contrary point of view in some way other than mischaracterizing their point of view and then throwing personal attacks at the strawman you've set up?
One would think your behavior in the Jimmy's Tire fire discussions would have been too much even for you; but after this one, I'm starting to wonder if that'll ever be the case.
For those who don't have the time or the inclination to go downtown and sit at a zoning hearing....they are on webcam and you can watch them from the comfort of your living room on your computer(and post on FT while doing so) and maybe learn something about the process, a PUD, design comments, and more.
I never got that the heading here was anti development, rather the quality and character of the development.
boring.
i knew about j street. it's been on this blog, and a few others.
you think they they're in it for the betterment of the neihgborood?
read the subtext and ask your little birdies - choi has his foot in the door. j street is hoping to ride off of that, in a pseudo partnership with choi.
choi is running the show.
that's why i hope the community gets involved in expressing their desires (like they won't!).
oh, and about jimmy's... i don't wish harm or malice upon anyone, but i'm glad that p.o.s. is gone.
i apologize if that's a place that you frequented, which i doubt - so give me a break.
if you lived next door, you'd understand.
I love A. Litteris' subs and cheap wine, but hate that they close too early. I went to that Mexican Vegetable shop once, and was turned off by the poor selection of produce. I went to market market one other time to look at meats, and was truned off because I all of the signs reference body parts I care not to eat. I'm a bad neighbor. Where's my Starbucks?!?
8th and El,
It's true that the signs are for sorts of animal parts, but there are some great butcher shops in the Market. But keep in mind that there are many quote unquote ethinic cuisines that utilize these parts, and the presence of signs doesn't mean that you have to buy those parts. I know many people who have had excellent luck with the halal butcher shop inside Caribbean Crescent. I typically buy pre-cut pieces from U.S. Beef, and I've yet to be disappointed.
Mexican Fruits sells stuff that is close to going off, so the selction is uneven and you need to use much of it quickly. It's a pick through place. But you can get great deals there if you know how to look. Try Sam Wang's, or MS300, for fresher stuff.
Poo Poo, both Mr. Choi and J Street are developers. I'm not trying to claim that one is an angel and the other is Satan. I've sure Mr. Choi is probably a nice guy. He's just a businessman, as are the people from J Street. The difference is that I'm seeing some very troubling avoidance of the process from Choi's hired agents, and I'm not seeing that from J Street. I'd love to work with Mr. Choi on his plans, and I hope his team will come around on that. But for me, community and ANC input is key, as is the completion of the OP's Small Area Plan. I'm pretty familiar with the intricacies of the Gateway Market Residences and I think that some of it needs reworking. I'm hoping that the Office of Planning and community input can help to bring about these changes. I have no wish to scuttle the project altogether. I just want it to fit with the area a bit better, and I think that following the proper process will lead to this outcome.
I very much support development in the Market. I just want it to be inclusive and appropriate to the area.
I went to the DC Farmer's Market on Saturday and the produce was AWFUL! It was not fresh and it was just as expensive if not more than the selections at Safeway and Giant. Plus the stench from the dumpsters as you approach is overwhelming. I definitely support new development that will hopefully curtail the danger that looms on those corners come nightfall.
G, check out the crime reports, or attend a PSA 504 meeting. Talk to the PSA Lt. Crime is no so bad as some would have you believe. The produce at various vendors varies from time to time. I personally prefer to shop at vendors who are not part of the DC Farmers Market [for most items] because the prices are typically better, and the selection can be better. Some of the retail places are either a grand slam, or a total strike. It all depends on the day. My advice would be to look around. And yes, I agree completely that development in the area is both inevitable, and desireable. I just want to make sure that any development on the site is both suited to the area, and properly vetted through the ANC with community input. I also want to see the Small Area Plan completed before any development is approved. The Small Area Plan is an important vehicle for constuctive and structured input from both the community and the Office of Planning. It includes sophisticated economic feasibility studies. We've already paid for it. Why should we now ignore it?
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