Image provided by the creators of the website
A group is resisting efforts to put in a Shell station on Maryland Ave at 14th.
A nearby gas station on Florida Ave
Photo provided by the website's creators.
The proposed location of the Shell station. It was previously a used car lot that infringed upon public space.
68 comments:
i forwarded this to a few other folks that will be... well, livid.
i also signed the petition, but got a really long error message after submitting it. they may want to put some contact info on their site so that someone can tell them about it.
I also was unable to successfully sign the petition.
- 14th Pl
Contact info for the site (from the domain registration):
Friedly, John
finance [at] stormingmedia.com
1375 Maryland Ave. NE Loft B
Washington, District of Columbia 20002
202 360 4172
Please try to sign the petition again and let me know if you have any trouble. It is critical that we show a strong opposition to this landuse.
Bill Schultheiss
schlthss at yahoo.com
Are they talking about putting this in where the used car lot was?
Gee - what a nice intersection that would be. A hole-y Checkers and a gas station. Yay.
I just tried again. No luck.
This fucking city...what a bunch of NIMBYs. This is NE, you should be happy you're getting something that isn't a fried chicken stand.
It's a very catchy website design. Congrats.
But I'm confused. The website isn't real clear on exactly what land is being requested from the city. Is it just some sort of right of way?
And would it really be Shell Oil making this request, as the website indicates? Aren't most local stations not owned by the oil company themselves? Aren't they usually owned by an individual?
Last, is the area already well-served with gas stations? Is this something the overall community needs, or is it duplicative of nearby stations already?
You can stand on the corner of Maryland and 14th, and look north a couple of block to see the AMOCO station on Florida Ave. These gas stations no longer make their profits in gas but cigarettes,sodas and chips. We already have plenty of places to buy that stuff too.
I was all about to hurl NIMBY insults too, but there is absolutely no reason for DC to give away land to any company for another gas station in this neighborhood (If that part of the website is true). The franchise that would operate the gas station can pay taxes and rent just like every other business owner.
I took a closer look at the website and can see that some of the questions I asked are answered.
One point of confusion.... the website says that the proposed use would result in a loss of ten street parking spaces. From the drawing provided that isn't clear. Could someone clarify?
I hope everyone understands the graphic at the top of the "our case" page. The pink is the private property. Everything else is the public portion for which they need to get a public space permit for.
The loss of 10 parking spaces should be 6 spaces - 3 spots for each curb cut. They originally proposed 3 driveways which they reduced to 2 because they knew this was contentious.
the website should be taking signatures again.
I suspect that the chain link fence is somewhat near their property boundary, and that the rest is city- owned space. I'd LOVE a garden center to go in there, since there is some room for parking.
Personally I think a gas station would be better than the vacant buidling that currently sits there. Hasn't there been at least one fire at that location since the car lot was shut down? Also, havn't stories been posted on this website about the disapperance of gas stations from big cities and how that is bad? I think there was a big one a while back about how Manhattan is loosing all its gas stations? In fact one fo the stations over on Penn Ave SE was recenlty turned into Condo's. open business's are better than no business's.
FYI: I just looked at the property on google earth, and saw that the *vast* majority of cars for sale were parked in public space. (They must be using an old photo.)
Take a look!
how about a city managed parking lot for all the new businesses in the Atlas district??
Yes, the parking lot is best idea so far. Does anyone know if H Street Connection is still being turned into a apartments/condos with retail and parking?
parking lot?
noooooo........! talk about blight!
we need a doggy park!
ok, anyone has a right to be opposed to this particular use of this property. but the 'public space' argument is pretty weak. the area is public space in the same way that your front yard is considered 'public space' if you happen to own a house in DC.
Large parking garages are proposed for the new developments at 600 H, H Street Connection and probably the future Autozone redevelopment.
Try asking DDOT to let you pave "your" front yard and see if they let you do it. Very unlikely and very unattractive - how nice are all those lindy homes where the city let people actually pave their yard so people could park on it instead of inside their garage which they fill with things other than a car? I think most would agree they are ugly.
The front yard was meant to be green or a place for the public to gather such as an outdoor seating area for a restaurant.
This is one of the few corner lots along the H Street corridor that could support significant outdoor seating for a restaurant.
Thank you to those who are on top of this. I can't think of a worse use of the land. Isn't the H Street Co-Op still looking for a sight? If they are giving space away... new farmer's market local?
Really, Hannah, you can't think of a worse use of land? How about the site in its current state, the state it has sat in for three years? You prefer that hell to an operating business?
If you people think a garden center is going to open in that area, you're living in cloud cuckoo land.
Garden District opened on 14th and S, NW in 2002 - when U and 14th, NW still transitioning back into a commercial corridor. The Washington Post printed an article about the gardening store... - http://www.gardendistrict-dc.com/about/news_inthegarden.htm...and they are still open.
We don't need to settle...and give land away. Shell's community amenities, in exchange for a special exception and public space permit, are bike racks and an air hose. Not much of an amenity if you ask me.
ANC 6A's Economic and Development (ED&Z) and Transportation and Public Space Committees held a joint meeting in June to hear this case. To view a list of the participants and notes from the meeting, click on the following link: http://www.anc6a.org/minutes/EDZM0608.doc
bill, unfortunately when i walk around our neighborhood i see that many people over the years have put driveways and curb cuts in their front yard. today i'm sure that wouldn't be allowed ... but good luck trying to reverse it. i think that's the case with this commercial property - there has already been a precedent of using the 'front yard' space. that's why i believe the public space angle is a slender reed on which to base opposition to this gas station - but maybe i'm wrong.
by the way, AE, garden district not only survived, it's EXPANDING on 14th street!
more here:
http://www.princeofpetworth.com/?p=1932
ebenzer - it is your kind of thinking that has allowed H ST to be what it is today.
I would rather have the land vacant than have a gas station where I'll be harassed for a cig or .25 cents non-stop while filling up my tank.
we won't need gas stations anyway.
when obama is president, all cars will run without gasoline.
we need a doggy park.
Yes, Garden Space has or is opening a second location. They looked at H Street for that second location, but decided to put it on 14th Street instead.
Joe Englert said:
Here is a sad statistic. No gas station has EVER been defeated from moving into a neighborhood in DC. NEVER.
So, it would be a historic episode if this Shell station could be turned back.
And no, it isn't better than an abandoned lot at this point. Because of poor policing and general malaise, the nearby BP is a very unsafe place to buy gas. It is a petty crime bazaar.
I will drive 2 miles in any direction to avoid buying gas there.
And what is really unfair, if you had a restaurant that was such a vestige of crime and place of harassment as some of our local gas stations, DCRA would shut you down in a second.
Our city has a real priority problem...........and a profound lack of imagination
Forgive me for my naivetee, but does a gas station fit into the master plan for H St. Could it be opposed on those type of grounds? How about environmental? There will have to be tanks put under ground...maybe there are some grounds for opposing that.
I agree that ebeneezer's comments pose a false choice. The third choice is to wait until conditions change and a more attractive business moves into the space.
It's funny to see the city's rendering of the Starburst intersection...all trees and attractive buildings. No CVS, no gas station. If they like attractive places like that, start with denying this gas station.
a gas station there would go nicely with the boarded-up Checkers that adorns the opposite side of the street.
how can the Checkers property owner be allowed to keep his business like that?
the accident that broke his windows occurred months ago.
But yet, all you see is plywood on the windows.
would like to see him try that in Georgetown or somewhere in NW.
Ok, I should have read the shell-no site before making my comment. That's a very impressive site.
I would like to make a similar one demanding the improvement of the X2 bus line. :-) Catchy name suggestions?
Not to mention one to oppose any sort of public subsidy to New Town.
My understanding is that facing opposition from the community a gas station did withdraw from, and sell, a space at 3rd and H.
Joe is wrong. A gas station was stopped at 2nd & H Street NE. It took an incrediable amount of work by many neighbors to stop it. A key worker bee on the effort was Richard Layman.
Also, the station on Florida has been mentioned by the Police as the likely site of an altercation that ended in the senseless murder of the three men on Holbrook Street a couple of months back. You might also recall the incident that made national news not so many years back that occurred at a gas station around 5th and Florida. A man approached another man and shot him execution style while another patron looked on, but continued to pump his gas. The lesson is don't pump your gas at night at certain stations. They are unsafe. This station is a bad idea in my opinion. But it's another quality project fronted by lobbyist John Ray, the same guy who fronts the New Town developer and who fronted the slot machine initiative. He's not so much about community input, unless you mean intentionally circumventing it.
Yep, Joe Englert is wrong again. He bought into this community with money but he will never really buy into the community. I guess that is why he does know about the old proposed gas station that was defeated for the 2nd and Hst NE Stuart property.
Joe Englert:
I don't think the case of the station at 2nd and H actually went to the zoning board stage. I think they backed out before that. I could be wrong of course.
If I am wrong.......yes, I am wrong again........damn!
Bill, Richard, can you give witness?
By the way, anonymous, I now own a house on Linden Ct and one on Wylie, too. If you would like to invite me over for some sweet iced tea, I would be delighted to come. Maybe you can give me a lesson on how to buy into a community, I am all ears.....
Im having trouble with the web site but will gladly sign the petition. First there are already plenty of gas stations in the area including 2 just a couple blocks away on florida and one right off of florida on Bladensburg road. There are several more gas stations about a half mile or so down benning road and a few more a mile up Bladensburg and a couple over on sixth and florida. No one who lives in this neighborhood has any trouble finding a place to fill up nearby. Secondly the original plan from a few months back for the station on 14th and Maryland if my memory is correct included an all night convenience store. Sorry, no dice. There are so many possibilities for that location. We don’t need a pit stop for Maryland commuters or yet another place for the winos and crackheads to loiter. The checkers already serves both of those purposes and I think we all know how good of a neighbor the checkers has been: if you don’t, then go by and check out their sweet plywood window treatments.
Joe Englert:
Sorry to appear again. But I have looked at many stories and comments on the BP at Stuart's development. It wasn't decreed that they couldn't build. Their project was going to be scaled back. I don't think there was any official verdict not allowing them to build on the site.
This is not to denigrate the neighbor's efforts--but to call into question our city's politicians when money is being waved by a power corporation.
Also, I will do anything to help Bill and our neighbors deny Shell from opening. The Atlas Business group will do anything in its power as well. Thanks for fighting the good fight, Bill and lots of luck!
A response from Derrick Woody's office and a letter from Bill Schulteiss to Deputy Mayor Albert is posted on the ANC 6a listserve. Apparently the Deputy Mayor refused a letter of support for the community against the gas station.
It sounds like the best solution would be for someone to come up with a concrete 'better use' idea for the site and see if the owner would like to sell.
gee, hillman. why didn't we think of that?? [sigh...]
Anonymous:
I mention this because residents are demanding a whole lot from someone who has invested a good deal of money into this site.
I don't have a fully formed opinion on this (not that anyone asked). But it seems to me that we are treading pretty close to using very new ideas of what we want in the neighborhood (the new H Street plan, etc) to impose pretty severe restrictions on people that owned here long before these new plans came about, while holding businesses we don't like to a higher standard than those we do like (particularly when it comes to the crime issue).
It just seems odd to me that we are so quick to try to stop people from developing their businesses in DC. Then we complain about not having any.
Many have mentioned how there's a lot of crime around gas station /convenient marts. That's sometimes true. But how much of that is the fault of the gas station operators? A lot of it is the fault of the community (if you want to include the bums and thugs as part of the community).
And already I see that one of the restrictions neighbors want placed on the gas station is a restriction against 'too much lighting'.
So you want it dark, then you want to complain about the criminal element?
And crime certainly isn't limited to gas stations. I recall being very aggressively panhandled and nearly robbed at the Bank of America on H. Does that mean we should ban banks? And let's not forget that Joe Englert's employee was shot coming out of Joe's restaurant. Does that mean we should ban restaurants?
There's a fine line between trying to encourage businesses we all like and infringing on someone's basic property rights.
Again, I'm not saying the gas station is a good thing. But some of the rhetoric I'm seeing here is awfully simplistic. The whole 'big oil bad' mantra is just a bit troubling to me. As is the fairly selective crime argument.
anonymous said:
Damn-it Hillman, there you go again, interjecting grey into a black and white argument again!
I hate when one must do some serious thinking!
Hillman says:
"I mention this because residents are demanding a whole lot from someone who has invested a good deal of money into this site."
Really, Hillman? Have you seen the site? What evidence do you have that the owner has invested "a good deal of money" into the site? It's been in the same dilapidated condition for years now. And remember, the owner only owns a small part of the space he intends to lease to the Shell gas station people. The rest of that space is public and NOT under his control. He can ask to use it, as he is doing now, but he is not entitled to use it. The community has a large say in whether a landowner can exercise domain over public space. I don't think it's unreasonable for the community to oppose or withhold its support unless it feels it will benefit somewhat from the owner's use of said space.
Hillman goes onto say:
"I don't have a fully formed opinion on this..."
Ok, thanks for acknowledging that fact. So then what is the point of going off about something you yourself acknowledge you know very little about? That's like me going off about how stem cell research is a joke, but then quickly adding the qualifier that I don't know jack about science. Not very effective.
More pearls of inaccuracy from Hillman:
"And let's not forget that Joe Englert's employee was shot coming out of Joe's restaurant. Does that mean we should ban restaurants?"
Actually, he was shot in front of his girlfriend's house, not coming out of the restaurant. Oh yeah, that's right, you're not fully informed, correct?
I agree some of the rhetoric is "simple" as you say, but that's the way these things have to be presented to be effective on a large scale. I don’t think the folks heading up this effort are concerned about winning a debate with you in the back corner of a coffee shop over lattes and scones (which, btw, I think they would win nonetheless). At this point, they need to get the word out to the community. KSS, my friend. Keep it Simple, Stupid (that is a saying – I AM NOT stating or implying Hillman is stupid – I actually think he is quite smart).
In addition, Mr.Hillman
The owner of this property paved and FENCED in a huge portion of public land for a used car lot. Even after notification by city officials, the owner did not move the fence back to his property line. The city had to remove the fence. The asphalt is still there. For evidence of the expanded car lot beyond private property , do check out the DC Atlas for 1400 Maryland Av
Now, folks, simmer down. Last time I checked everyone, including me, was entitled to an opinion.
The investor in question here (apparently DAG) has undoubtedly sunk a good deal of money on development to date. Development plans, lawyer fees, etc. It can be very expensive.
From what little I do know it's clear that the site has been poorly maintained for pretty much as long as anyone can remember.
By most accounts the car lot folks were terrible neighbors. But what I can gather the actual property owner isn't the same person as the
person that ran the car lot?
Like I said, a lot is unknown here.
But if that's the case, then I'm not sure how much blame we can assess to the actual property owner. Maybe he tried to get the car lot guys to clean up and have a more attractive property. Or maybe he couldn't care less. I don't know.
Who knows? All I know for sure is that he apparently owned the lot while the neighborhood was pretty much a ghetto, and that is quite an extenuating circumstance in many respects.
But that doesn't mean this new investor hasn't got a lot of money tied up here.
As for Joe's employee, from what I understand he was coming home from Argo and was most likely targeted because of that.
In any event, I guarantee you that people are targeted for crime at businesses up and down H Street, including bars, banks, etc. Singling out just gas stations and trying to close them down because people in the neighborhood create crime isn't really fair unless you can show that the gas station encourages or at a bare minimum doesn't care about the crime.
Again, I don't know if this station is a good thing or not. I do know that there are very nicely run gas stations in urban strips all throughout DC. We can't automatically assume this one would be as crappy as the others in the area are. For all we know this one would be quite nice and would drive the crappy ones out of business. Or maybe it wouldn't. Who knows?
My point is that we are messing with people's livelihoods here. When you do that, you need to be extra careful and give everyone a fair shake.
I think a lot of people would prefer a restaurant with outdoor seating there. But that's FAR from a given possibility even if a restaurant were to locate there. Let's not forget that neighbors can (and often do) petition to get outdoor seating at restaurants taken away because they don't like the noise, the trash, etc.
And who knows the details of the lease to DAG? Maybe it's something that is so ironclad that the owner of the property can't break it to build something else even if he wanted to?
As Joe has pointed out, running a restaurant is a very high risk business (as are urban garden centers). I'm betting running a gas station is probably much less risky, in part because you don't have to deal with neighbors constantly trying to get your liquor license revoked, your outdoor seating removed, etc., etc.
This town is famous for giving restaurant and bar owners a very hard time.
Maybe this is a small example of that attitude coming back to bite us in the butt.
Given that history, if I was a business property owner in DC, I'd be hard pressed to pass up the sure $$ of a gas station deal over the very shaky prospects a restaurant or bar would provide me, in terms of a long term lease.
On a side note unrelated to this particular saga, isn't "Keeping It Simple" sortof how we've managed to screw our country up here as of late? Assuming that people deserve only sound-bite information and emotion-based politics?
I think the Shell-no covers the details quite well.
The landowner today is the same owner as carlink property. This person also owns the beauty lot at Mt. Olivet and Bladensburg surrounded by barbed wire. I believe the city seized many of the cars there not too long ago.
I think it is safe to say the neighborhood would support a business that respects this public space including an outdoor patio for a restaurant. I would be a leading advocate for it. Our polling from the petition is demonstrating a strong support for this concept.
The owner of the lot has also been approached to sell to local folks who are sensitive to the desires of the community. They were rebuffed in their efforts.
I have zero sympathy for DAG and the owner. DAG should have done their homework instead of assuming they could ram this down our throat. The owner has shown no respect for our neighborhood and has helped contribute to its negative image.
Please email Fenty and tell him to get his agencies behind the community, not DAG.
"The owner of the lot has also been approached to sell to local folks who are sensitive to the desires of the community. They were rebuffed in their efforts."
What does that mean, exactly? Did someone go over there and tell them what they needed to do with their our property? And it's shocking to you that the landowners gave that person the finger?
Hey all,
I just bought a house in the area a few weeks ago and I think this effort is great and very important. I'd love to go to the hearing but I noticed the posted date is Thursday, Oct. 14th - but the 14th is a Tuesday. What's the right date?
Also, any thoughts on having a market small market go in? It's been hard to find fresh produce (except for the Farmer's Market) and Sunday papers.
Thanks!
The owner was approached to see if he would be willing to sell. He was not - he would rather not ask what the community is interested in, ignore the community planning, and install a gas station against the community's wishes.
No one told him what to do. It is his right to do what he wants, as it is our right to stop irresponsible development that doesn't comply with adopted city policies and codes.
The main point of me stating this is that we don't have to feel sorry for this guy. He has alternatives - we don't have to roll over and give in just because he has owned the property for awhile.
What is "shocking" to me is the fact that he has not done one thing to contribute to this neighborhood in a positive way, and the city government is not showing that it is willing to stand up to that and protect the interest of the residents who live here.
"He was not - he would rather not ask what the community is interested in, ignore the community planning, and install a gas station against the community's wishes."
Bill, were you there for this meeting? I ask because that sort of exchange would be unusually harsh.
If you were there, or have any other interactions with this property owner, I'd very much like to hear about them in detail, as that type of background is very useful in cases like this.
As for being shocked by the city's role, all I can say is it's the DC government. Nothing they do (or don't do) shocks me. It mostly just makes me sad.
I guess I read this, and while I don't like the idea of a gas station. It's a vacant lot right now, ugly as hell, and maybe a gas station other than a BP would be good for competition. It seems BP has a lock in the neighborhood.
It seems to be a NIMBY thing here. Trinidad can have two gas stations but this corner can't have one. Why?
Dare I ask, why is this a big deal? There are real issues, this is pabulum and a waste of time. It’s not worth 53 comments. Go out and help people, pick up trash, tutor a child, plant a tree, save a f-ing whale. This is a god damn waste of time.
anonymous said:
Robby, this is a big deal if you live right across from the station. And it is a big deal in the big scheme of things. There is a master or comprehensive plan that the vast majority of businesses must abide by----how much of a lot can be used, what you can use a property for---etc, etc....these people aren't being held accountable mostly because BP paid off Kwame Brown and John Ray. Their money makes it that they can basically skirt the rules.....that is a big deal in my opinion
It's big deal... that's the def of NIMBY.
So if it were not across the street, but say five blocks up in Trinidad, you wouldn't care.
Funny how that works.
-Robby
What a terrible analogy. The gas stations in Trinidad ARE ALREADY THERE. Nothing anyone can do about that now. This gas station has not yet been built and it does not fit in with the city's development plan for the H Street area. Obviously, there's a HUGE difference here.
NIMBY with a double side of self pity. I hope they build the damn thing, I'll rent a truck once a month just to go there and fill up and then exhaust fumes up and down Maryland ave.
Trinidad can be the pits but the hill has to be kept neat and clean.
I think I'll suggest that checkers get a bigger more annoying sign too.
NIMBY NIMBY NIMBY
Go do something productive, or dare I say suggest to the owners another way for them to make as much money. They are business people; they are in it to make money. I am sure if you present lucrative alternatives the gas station idea may go away and become something else.
-Robby
-Robby
Ok, Robby. So if a group of Hill residents went up to Trinidad to protest an EXISTING gas station, that would make sense to you? Especially given that the residents who actually live in that area haven't taken up such an effort. That's right. Us Hill folk know what's best for the folks over in Trinidad! I guess the only way to buck the NIMBY tag in Robby world is to protest stuff in other people's neighborhoods. Nice...
Hey Robby,
Since you think you have clout with Checkers. will you ask them to fix their damn windows? A new sign would be an improvement to the current one with holes in it, by the way.
h is for happy:
At 14th and MD Trinidad is two blocks away, it's not another world. So let’s make a deal, you help us get rid of the BP and us Trinidad folk will help ban the Shell. What the hell, lets have no place to buy gas.
I hate the fake boundaries because it makes people say dumb shit like "us hill folk" which gave me a flash back to the cartoon the Oblongs, but also colors our very notion of community. There was a time when the hill didn't extend to 14th street NE, but the point is that why are people so hyped up about a gas station when there are fundamental life threatening issues in Rosedale and in Trinidad.
Now if I had a magic wand that lot would be a cafe, like the Carlyle Grand where I could walk my doggie over and get him a gourmet doggie biscuit and drink as much coffee as I can stand while reading the Sunday Times. Checkers would be replaced with a dog park. But my wand is broken and I am out of fairy dust.
If we are not pragmatic about this then nothing good will come of it. Take that for what its worth. However, it would be nice to see 60 comments about a loss of life.
On one hand you have 60 comments about a gas station on the hill, and maybe 20 about the murder of a black man in Trinidad. That's an interesting and revealing commentary in itself.
-Robby
Robby,
You got a deal! If you want to take up a quixotic quest to shut down an EXISTING gas station in Trinidad, by my guest. Start the campaign, set up a website and circulate a petition. I'll be glad to sign on, chief!
I am familiar with at least two examples of gas station proposals being defeated:
1. New Hampshire Ave. and Riggs Road, fought successfully by Rev. Hagler of Plymouth Congregational. They built housing instead. (Bad design though.)
2. The expansion of the BP station at 3rd and H Street NE.
I am not an expert on reading zoning. It's unclear what the deal is wrt gas station use and C3. It seems that matter of right is only for gas station's as part of a parking garage. Otherwise, in C2, gas stations require a hearing.
Re the BP station previously mentioned, Dru Tallant btw did a lot more than me, but thanks for the props.
BZA does say no sometimes. They don't like to though. In an odd move, the Development Review section of the Office of Planning turned in a negative report -- which is rare too. I am not sure that will happen here because the current Executive Branch regime is more crass than what was allowed under Mayor Williams. (Even though the OP director is great.)
Anyway, with the BP matter, the BZA ordered the case into mediation and it was never resolved. BP went away.
You could argue that was our strategy. To wait them out while market conditions changed. Then again, BZA might have wanted that too, not wanting to decree no, but being able to fall back on the OP Development Review report if they had to.
Once Abdo bought Childrens Museum, not to mention the creation of the New York Ave. Metro Station, the economics of development changed, and it was worth it for the property owner to buy BP out of the lease.
Sure things are slow now in the RE game but at some point they will pick back up. All along the railroad tracks they have the advantage of proximity to the subway stations.
There was an article about this in the Express today, picked one up in front of the metro.
Wylie st.
Englert said:
Thanks for the clarification guys on BZA thwarting gas stations. Good luck in turning this one away, too.
I am sorry to Robby and Hillman and others. But why not fight for something a little more imaginative for the space? Also, no gas station usually signs a lease unless it is for DOZENS of years. SO, this BP station could be selling Dorito chips when it is the year 2100. How thrilling.
doesn't trusty's have a gas station theme?
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