A look at what's going on in Trinidad, on H Street, and in the larger area north of Capitol Hill.
Tuesday, April 06, 2010
WP: Divide Over Wires Persists
The Post covers the ongoing debate about overhead wires for the streetcar. Ward 6 Councilmember Tommy Wells plans to introduce a bill that would overturn the ban that currently prohibits overhead wires in the Old City.
36 comments:
Anonymous
said...
Is it me or does this article put a negative spin on streetcars, withstanding wires?
Corridors along bus routes also could — and in some instances, do — accommodate higher-density transit-oriented housing in the same way that transit zones do, but there are fewer examples to point to. This is even more pronounced in the Washington D.C. region where 30 percent of commuters use transit overall, but bus only accounts for 8 percent of commute trips, indicating that the rail system is capturing a significant share of the transit trips.
O goodness, this debate is annoying. A one-sided post, no?
Who are these people who presume they can kill this city-wide project based on their own narrow and selective aesthetic?
I'm sorry, but I don't know what a "view shed" is. Exactly which view, seriously, would be ruined by two thin wires running down major thoroughfares? I do know that H street, K street, Benning Road, Anacostia, etc., would be a lot more attractive with more pedestrians, fewer cars, and thriving businesses and housing.
Ever travel to beautiful cities with streetcars with overhead wires (Prague, Paris, Budapest, Seattle, Portland, etc., etc.) and notice all those tourists taking pictures of the streetcars because they look cool and add a sense of space? I think they are nice.
I hate views of busses, traffic jams, traffic lights, jersey barriers, etc. Can I threaten to block the Committee of 100's right to drive cars?
The claim that the wires will interfere with historic vistas as it pertains to H St. is completely specious.
A.) You can't see the Capital or any other monument from H St.
B.) Presupposing that H St. has "vistas" in any way, shape or form is laughable at best.
This is quite simply NIMBYISM or Bobby Pittmanism masquerading as concern for the public welfare. If I recall, at one of the meetings it was an open debate whether this Meg person was in fact a legitimate representative of the Council of 100.
Having to constantly battle these little Bobby P's with questionable backgrounds and even more questionable motives is such a pain in the a$$. Where do they all come from?
If only there was a hot tub time machine that could take them back to the suburbs of the 1950's. Complete with gas guzzling tank-cars and right-thinking school boards.
have you guys been to h street and north capitol? believe it or not but you can see the capitol building from there.
also, along other planned streetcar routes in the city, there are views of monuments and the capitol.
these views are the "view sheds" being discussed. its funny when a swell of commentors can be extremely pro historic preservation, anti curb cuts, anti parking lots, very particular about designs of privately owned buildings, yet not even remotely considerate of the anti-wire argument.
the decisions of the street car along h street has city wide implications.
I'm pro street car. and i'd rather have streetcars than protected views, but stop pretending this is cut and dry. its a big city with lots of viewpoints, and we all have to live together. preserving the beauty of our city is important.
and there is that law in place against the overhead wires.
Would the decision for H street's street cars effect the rest of the proposed system? It would be very impractical to have one line running with overhead wires and another line running with batteries or an underground system.
I believe the concern is what goes in on H St will effect the rest of the city. So, while the view may not be effected for H St, it may if any lines are supposed to cross the mall or other grand Avenues throughout the city.
That being said, I agree with the other poster that mentioned there are already numerous things that effect the views of the Capital or the monuments. Think of the numerous event that are held every weekend on the Mall that errect stages or huge banners. And I think that overhead wires could probably be ran in such a way that would limit obstructions of the view.
The Post story was very one-sided. Greater Greater Washington can cite many, many cities, including Prague, with streetcar wires. They are not intrusive. I've been to San Francisco and St. Petersburg, Russia. Both have gorgeous architectural vistas. Both have streetcars with wires. The wires do not interfere with any sight lines. (and no, I'm not talking about the touristy cable cars in SF.)
And at this point, North Capitol is not part of the street car track, nimby. It ends at Union Station.
Yes, I have been to H St. and North Capital. In fact, I drive down it every other day. And I know that the streetcar line FOR H St. terminates in Union Station. From H St.-Benning Rd. to H St.-Union Station there is no discernible view of the Capital.
So, your argument with respect to where the tracks are being laid right now (i.e., H St. NE) is really not valid. I also think the argument is not valid for the rest of the city but was limiting my comments to the H St. corridor. There is simply no way you can argue that one streetcar wire is going to ruin the view of the Capital from H St. when you can't see the Capital from the H St. corridor.
This is why DDOT has proposed using a wireless system in places where you CAN see the monuments and wires where you CAN'T.
I can't help but believe that this argument about wires is a stalking horse for people who don't want streetcars for reasons of ideology (and believe me, there are such folks).
For one thing, there are already plenty of overhead electric and telephone wires in DC. Unsightly as hell, but I don't see any groundswell to get rid of them.
And which era of history are they trying to "preserve"? Streetcars with wires were part of the city for many years - well before roads and cars and traffic lights, etc.
the article was terrible. i mean, at least the wapo took the time to interview folks at DDOT instead of giving all the column space to the NIMBYS and obstructionists.
Here is the plan on which we should make our decisions: http://ddot.washingtondc.gov/ddot/cwp/view,a,1250,q,648154,ddotNav_GID,1746,ddotNav,|34060|.asp
not "The street car terminates at H Street NE and 3rd Street NE."
When opponents of the streetcars see how shortsighted that thinking is it fuels their opposition.
From what the preservationists are saying, you'd think these wires would turn DC into a Blade Runner-version of Los Angeles, circa 2019. Next we'll have flying cars and people with glowing umbrellas!
ok..so why not just power the street cars by battery or underground power lines? Shouldn't this issue have been resolved BEFORE tearing up H ST to install the tracks?
Because battery and underground wire streetcar systems are not available yet.
This is the point -- if wireless streetcars were an economical option, cities around the world would be using them. The few experiments out there would cost something like 5x to build, run, and maintain, are unproven and unreliable, and they would be proprietary (only one source of cars). By opposing wires, these folks in effect oppose building a streetcar system at all.
The city was literally built around streetcar lines, so opposition to streetcars seems strange from a historical preservation standpoint. Further, the wires are completely reversible--we just take them out when an alternative system becomes more economical in a few decades.
I am convinced though, that once the lines are in, people will wonder why tf some were so riled against such a non-issue in the first place.
According to this article from The Voice of the Hill, the streetcar line will not end at 3rd NE. It will end at Union Station via a viaduct cut into the Hopscotch Bridge and will go under the Amtrak lines and end at 1st NE. Still out of view of the Capitol "view shed".
I would be a lot more skeptical, but this is what Tommy Wells told me personally back in October.
I want to join the council of 100. Do dan brown or nick cage belong? Wait, how do the trolleys turn around? Tony, i'll believe it when i see it, T the pug
We could have a much more open and productive conversation if CHRS would just admit that it is against streetcars. To be fair, CHRS has done a lot to preserve the Capitol Hill we enjoy today. Unfortunately the thinking of some of their members has become stale (and I think, in speaking with neighbors, a number of their membership doesn't even realize this). Take, for example, the comments by an individual in CHRS leadership: "Street cars are not inherently better than buses within a city and may be worse: no flexibility, noise, cost, storage, and are purchased on a “one size fits all”. So far as I can tell Congress rightly made the decision many years ago that utility lines would go underground in the old city: I know the rest of city wishes that were so for them. I can think of no city that has overhead wires to run trolleys, light rail, and even buses who would not want to get rid of them, if they could. The new buses coming on line in DC—and I rode buses for years—are clean, attractive, much less noisy and much less polluting—hybrids and even completely battery operated buses will be here soon with the advances in battery technology—For your information, I was the NASA lawyer who dealt with most of the battery and fuel cell R&D contracts so I have been following the technology for some time."
I don't think the CHRS perspective accurately reflects how a majority feels about the issue. CHRS needs to evolve if it wishes to remain relevant to the needs of our community.
Wells understands that the wire law is a federal law doesn't he? It's not a DC law, it's Congress's. It's also why there are no wires of any kind in these parts of the city (Pepco, telephone or otherwise).
Any advanced city in the beginning of the 20th century passed laws to underground their wires because of aesthetics and safety.
This whole mess is because someone in DC government was either ignorant or dismissive of the law. That's not good governing.
Here's King Street in 1921 for a local sample of the wire problem: http://www.shorpy.com/node/4026
Here's a DC streetcar without wires: http://www.shorpy.com/node/6253
The point is, DC could be installing a system right now that uses an in ground motive system (which is what we used to have) or a battery system like in several European cities.
most recent anonymous person who is indistinguishable from all the other anonymous rabble: that picture of king street is nice and all, but you will alert the readers that that is not just a trolley wire, but many other wires (telephone, telegraph) as well, right? because any time someone trots out a picture like that as an example of the living hell that they feel will come from the pair of overhead wires that would power the H street streetcar is exaggerating the visual impact—greatly.
And if you wade though this, you'll be fully up to date on wireless possibilities and see a decent before/after photo of what streetcar wires (and their hundreds of poles) do to the view.
Of course King Street includes all types of wiring. What? You think PEPCO is going to sit quietly on the sidelines once streetcar wires are allowed? No. They'll say they want just a little overhead wire space too. They'll get it because after all what's a little more wire. Before you know it, you'll have recreated a problem solved 100 years ago.
I've sat through meetings where DC residents beg PEPCO to underground the wires they have in their alley. PEPCO officials literally laughed at them. And they were muckety-muck Georgetown residents who usually get their way, not laughed at.
Don't be hatin' on the H street planters! Would you prefer an empty tree box filled with garbage? Maybe you haters should adopt one and plant some decent plants in them. They will be gone when the street work is finished and new trees planted in their place. So maybe 2-3 years?
Anonymous wrote: "Any advanced city in the beginning of the 20th century passed laws to underground their wires because of aesthetics and safety."
Really?!? So, Paris, Vienna, Prague, Brussels, Amsterdam, Munich, Zurich, Barcelona, Milan, Lyon, Dublin, Toronto, Melbourne, Portland, Boston etc. are all not "advanced cities?" Because all of those cities, and literally hundreds more, use overhead wires for their streetcars.
Which gets to your second misstatement: "The point is, DC could be installing a system right now that uses an in ground motive system (which is what we used to have) or a battery system like in several European cities."
Only two cities use such a system: Bordeaux, and the vast majority of its system uses overhead wires, and Nice, which uses overhead wires everywhere but two very short stretches. Plus, Brodeaux just had snow for the fist time in a long time this winter and it wreaked havoc on the portion of their system using ground contact. Plus, use the Bordeaux system here, and the salt water on our streets in the winter will quickly electrocute a few unfortunate pedestrians. Not that that matters to the anti-streetcar crowd; most of them drive everywhere. Plus, Alstom, the maker of the Bordeaux system, has clealry said, probably for the reason I cite above, that they do not want to sell that system in North America. Plus, the Alstom system is proprietary, meaning that we would be stuck with sole source contracts form one vendor.
The anti-streetcar crowd should be honest and just say they are anti-streetcar rather than floating misleading statements meant to confuse the issue.
It will end at Union Station via a viaduct cut into the Hopscotch Bridge and will go under the Amtrak lines and end at 1st NE...
Connecting the streetcars via a tunnel cut into the Hopscotch bridge would require entering the Amtrak parking garage beneath what was once Delaware Avenue NE: http://tinyurl.com/yd7fyms. This would most certainly require closure of 2nd Street NE, which has an abundance of obvious ramifications.
Here is the plan on which we should make our decisions: http://ddot.washingtondc.gov/ddot/cwp/view,a,1250,q
Plans to connect the H Street line to Union Station are nothing more than plans, a term that has a more tentative connotation in the parlance of urban planning.
The District is intent on establishing Union Station as an intermodal transportation hub. Chip Akridge is intent on using his air rights to develop a $1B mixed use project that would connect to the transportation hub. But nobody has figured out exactly how the whole thing would work...until they do, any plans for interconnecting the streetcar and Union Station will be on hold.
I must confess, I find this debate very interesting. The issue of street cars on H Street is not new. Both ANC 6A and 6B have been working very hard over the last four years to include the street cars in the H Street Streetscape project. That being said, there clearly seems to be two sides to the overhead wires. I think that Councilmember Wells’ efforts to introduce legislation to resolve the issue is an important step. Until the legal issue of whether wires are permissible or not is decided – the debate on the use of wires is slightly academic.
A compromise solution would be to prohibit street car wires in historic districts and on any street where the wires would obstruct a direct view of the U.S Capitol. That would address many of the concerns of the historic preservationists while allowing the street cars to be installed. While I am not an expert, anx based on what I have heard, today’s street cars powered by overhead wires can be combined with battery power to create a mass transit option that can use wires where allowed then switch to battery power when required. From an economic model standpoint, it is in the best interest of any company introducing alterative power sources to be able to smartly retrofit existing streetcars to gain potential sales. The installed base of streetcars using overhead wires is much larger than the streetcars not using overhead wires. DDOT has stated this fact many times and it seems to fall on deaf ears for those that are advocating a wire-free alternative.
I have approached CHRS on this compromise and their initial response is to soundly reject any compromise that would allow street car wires anywhere in the city – historic district or not. That is a short-sided approach. While I would welcome a wireless streetcar alterative, I would not be in favor of such an approach if it delayed the implementation of streetcars for years. And again, based on DDOT statements, the current underground options are proprietary (and very expensive) and untested in diverse climates (where snow is a regular occurrence). Based on the inflexibility of CHRS, I have come to the conclusion that demanding the use of technology that is both expensive and untested is really an argument against streetcars.
ANC 6A recently adopted a resolution that supports the use of wires to power street cars. I think that is a very sound decision as it will allow the DC government to capitalize on federal funding to implement streetcars today. In this case, a bird in hand is better than two in the bush. If CHRS and the Committee of 100 on the Federal City would be willing to compromise and support legislation to that prohibits streetcar wires in historic districts as well as streets that have direct views of the U.S. Capitol, the city as a whole could move forward united in the desire to provide streetcars for our city.
Also, while the initial streetcar plans had the line terminating on 3rd and H Streets, DDOT has since stated at public meetings, the H Street streetcar will terminate in Union Station. This will create a true inter-modal mass transit solution that will allow residents to take Metro to Union Station and then switch to the streetcar to enjoy many of the new business on H Street. Regards, Joe Fengler
I agree with the general hybrid system (overhead wires with battery power where appropriate), but this comment thread does bring up one good point.
IMHO, any overhead wire exception should be for powering the streetcar system and the streetcar system alone. Streetcar wires can be easily removed at some point in the future, not so with Pepco/Comcast/Verizon/etc.
We need to be careful that H St and DC writ large does not start to look like my alley in Old City/NNE/SoFlo (where there are so many wires it looks like someone dumped a bowl of pasta on the poles).
Also, while the initial streetcar plans had the line terminating on 3rd and H Streets, DDOT has since stated at public meetings, the H Street streetcar will terminate in Union Station. This will create a true inter-modal mass transit solution that will allow residents to take Metro to Union Station and then switch to the streetcar to enjoy many of the new business on H Street
I am aware that DDOT has publicly indicated the streetcar will terminate in Union Station. But everyone's scratching their heads at this point...
I agree, there is a cloud of mystery around the plans to get the street car into Union Station. However, that should be a question at the next streetcar meeting. Here is the announcement from Drew and Kelvin for the next meeting:
ANC 5B, 6A and 6C will be sponsoring a community meeting at Wheatley Elementary School, 1299 Neal St NE on Tuesday April 20th at 6:30 pm to discuss DDOT's latest plans for the H Street/Benning Road Streetcar line. Come find out the latest operating schedules, plans for powering the streetcars and connecting them to existing public transportation hubs.
The following city officials will be attendance:
Gabe Klein, District Department of Transportation Director Scott Kubly, Streetcar Project Manager Harry Thomas, Jr. Councilmember, Ward 5 Tommy Wells, Councilmember, Ward 6
36 comments:
Is it me or does this article put a negative spin on streetcars, withstanding wires?
Corridors along bus routes also could — and in some instances, do —
accommodate higher-density transit-oriented housing in the same way that transit zones do, but there
are fewer examples to point to. This is even more pronounced in the Washington D.C. region where 30 percent of commuters use
transit overall, but bus only accounts for 8 percent of commute trips, indicating that the rail system is capturing a significant share of the transit trips.
Source: http://www.cnt.org/repository/Hidden-in-Plain-Sight.pdf
O goodness, this debate is annoying. A one-sided post, no?
Who are these people who presume they can kill this city-wide project based on their own narrow and selective aesthetic?
I'm sorry, but I don't know what a "view shed" is. Exactly which view, seriously, would be ruined by two thin wires running down major thoroughfares? I do know that H street, K street, Benning Road, Anacostia, etc., would be a lot more attractive with more pedestrians, fewer cars, and thriving businesses and housing.
Ever travel to beautiful cities with streetcars with overhead wires (Prague, Paris, Budapest, Seattle, Portland, etc., etc.) and notice all those tourists taking pictures of the streetcars because they look cool and add a sense of space? I think they are nice.
I hate views of busses, traffic jams, traffic lights, jersey barriers, etc. Can I threaten to block the Committee of 100's right to drive cars?
The claim that the wires will interfere with historic vistas as it pertains to H St. is completely specious.
A.) You can't see the Capital or any other monument from H St.
B.) Presupposing that H St. has "vistas" in any way, shape or form is laughable at best.
This is quite simply NIMBYISM or Bobby Pittmanism masquerading as concern for the public welfare. If I recall, at one of the meetings it was an open debate whether this Meg person was in fact a legitimate representative of the Council of 100.
Having to constantly battle these little Bobby P's with questionable backgrounds and even more questionable motives is such a pain in the a$$. Where do they all come from?
If only there was a hot tub time machine that could take them back to the suburbs of the 1950's. Complete with gas guzzling tank-cars and right-thinking school boards.
have you guys been to h street and north capitol? believe it or not but you can see the capitol building from there.
also, along other planned streetcar routes in the city, there are views of monuments and the capitol.
these views are the "view sheds" being discussed.
its funny when a swell of commentors can be extremely pro historic preservation, anti curb cuts, anti parking lots, very particular about designs of privately owned buildings, yet not even remotely considerate of the anti-wire argument.
the decisions of the street car along h street has city wide implications.
I'm pro street car. and i'd rather have streetcars than protected views, but stop pretending this is cut and dry. its a big city with lots of viewpoints, and we all have to live together. preserving the beauty of our city is important.
and there is that law in place against the overhead wires.
Would the decision for H street's street cars effect the rest of the proposed system? It would be very impractical to have one line running with overhead wires and another line running with batteries or an underground system.
I believe the concern is what goes in on H St will effect the rest of the city. So, while the view may not be effected for H St, it may if any lines are supposed to cross the mall or other grand Avenues throughout the city.
That being said, I agree with the other poster that mentioned there are already numerous things that effect the views of the Capital or the monuments. Think of the numerous event that are held every weekend on the Mall that errect stages or huge banners. And I think that overhead wires could probably be ran in such a way that would limit obstructions of the view.
The Post story was very one-sided. Greater Greater Washington can cite many, many cities, including Prague, with streetcar wires. They are not intrusive. I've been to San Francisco and St. Petersburg, Russia. Both have gorgeous architectural vistas. Both have streetcars with wires. The wires do not interfere with any sight lines. (and no, I'm not talking about the touristy cable cars in SF.)
And at this point, North Capitol is not part of the street car track, nimby. It ends at Union Station.
Nimby,
Yes, I have been to H St. and North Capital. In fact, I drive down it every other day. And I know that the streetcar line FOR H St. terminates in Union Station. From H St.-Benning Rd. to H St.-Union Station there is no discernible view of the Capital.
So, your argument with respect to where the tracks are being laid right now (i.e., H St. NE) is really not valid. I also think the argument is not valid for the rest of the city but was limiting my comments to the H St. corridor.
There is simply no way you can argue that one streetcar wire is going to ruin the view of the Capital from H St. when you can't see the Capital from the H St. corridor.
This is why DDOT has proposed using a wireless system in places where you CAN see the monuments and wires where you CAN'T.
I can't help but believe that this argument about wires is a stalking horse for people who don't want streetcars for reasons of ideology (and believe me, there are such folks).
For one thing, there are already plenty of overhead electric and telephone wires in DC. Unsightly as hell, but I don't see any groundswell to get rid of them.
And which era of history are they trying to "preserve"? Streetcars with wires were part of the city for many years - well before roads and cars and traffic lights, etc.
the article was terrible. i mean, at least the wapo took the time to interview folks at DDOT instead of giving all the column space to the NIMBYS and obstructionists.
have you guys been to h street and north capitol? believe it or not but you can see the capitol building from there.
And I know that the streetcar line FOR H St. terminates in Union Station.
The street car terminates at H Street NE and 3rd Street NE. Not at North Capitol Street. And not at Union Station.
Here is the plan on which we should make our decisions:
http://ddot.washingtondc.gov/ddot/cwp/view,a,1250,q,648154,ddotNav_GID,1746,ddotNav,|34060|.asp
not
"The street car terminates at H Street NE and 3rd Street NE."
When opponents of the streetcars see how shortsighted that thinking is it fuels their opposition.
I am sadly disappointed that the historic preservationists aren't proposing a return to horse drawn streetcars within the inner c
I oppose the installation of streetwires as they (might) obscure the crumbling facades and gangland graffiti that make H Street so unique.
From what the preservationists are saying, you'd think these wires would turn DC into a Blade Runner-version of Los Angeles, circa 2019. Next we'll have flying cars and people with glowing umbrellas!
ok..so why not just power the street cars by battery or underground power lines? Shouldn't this issue have been resolved BEFORE tearing up H ST to install the tracks?
Anonymous 1:03:
Because battery and underground wire streetcar systems are not available yet.
This is the point -- if wireless streetcars were an economical option, cities around the world would be using them. The few experiments out there would cost something like 5x to build, run, and maintain, are unproven and unreliable, and they would be proprietary (only one source of cars). By opposing wires, these folks in effect oppose building a streetcar system at all.
The city was literally built around streetcar lines, so opposition to streetcars seems strange from a historical preservation standpoint. Further, the wires are completely reversible--we just take them out when an alternative system becomes more economical in a few decades.
I am convinced though, that once the lines are in, people will wonder why tf some were so riled against such a non-issue in the first place.
According to this article from The Voice of the Hill, the streetcar line will not end at 3rd NE. It will end at Union Station via a viaduct cut into the Hopscotch Bridge and will go under the Amtrak lines and end at 1st NE. Still out of view of the Capitol "view shed".
I would be a lot more skeptical, but this is what Tommy Wells told me personally back in October.
http://www.voiceofthehill.com/FRONT-PAGE/H-Street-streetcar-plan-would-bring-line-to-Union-Station-by-2012
How about some good old fashion compromise? Overhead wires can be put in place on H St. if the "vivid" H shaped planters go.
I think the idea behind the streetcars was "Let's build it now and apologize (for the wires) later." Which is fine with me, I'm glad they're going in.
And for the record, I too hate the H St. planters and can't wait for them to be gone! Whose bright idea was that anyway?
I want to join the council of 100. Do dan brown or nick cage belong? Wait, how do the trolleys turn around?
Tony, i'll believe it when i see it, T
the pug
There is a lot of incorrect info going about.
Do some research people.
Read the ddot plan. Read greater greater Washington. Look up old posts here
BEFORE you speculate and post misinformation
We could have a much more open and productive conversation if CHRS would just admit that it is against streetcars. To be fair, CHRS has done a lot to preserve the Capitol Hill we enjoy today. Unfortunately the thinking of some of their members has become stale (and I think, in speaking with neighbors, a number of their membership doesn't even realize this). Take, for example, the comments by an individual in CHRS leadership: "Street cars are not inherently better than buses within a city and may be worse: no flexibility, noise, cost, storage, and are purchased on a “one size fits all”. So far as I can tell Congress rightly made the decision many years ago that utility lines would go underground in the old city: I know the rest of city wishes that were so for them. I can think of no city that has overhead wires to run trolleys, light rail, and even buses who would not want to get rid of them, if they could. The new buses coming on line in DC—and I rode buses for years—are clean, attractive, much less noisy and much less polluting—hybrids and even completely battery operated buses will be here soon with the advances in battery technology—For your information, I was the NASA lawyer who dealt with most of the battery and fuel cell R&D contracts so I have been following the technology for some time."
I don't think the CHRS perspective accurately reflects how a majority feels about the issue. CHRS needs to evolve if it wishes to remain relevant to the needs of our community.
Wells understands that the wire law is a federal law doesn't he? It's not a DC law, it's Congress's. It's also why there are no wires of any kind in these parts of the city (Pepco, telephone or otherwise).
Any advanced city in the beginning of the 20th century passed laws to underground their wires because of aesthetics and safety.
This whole mess is because someone in DC government was either ignorant or dismissive of the law. That's not good governing.
Here's King Street in 1921 for a local sample of the wire problem: http://www.shorpy.com/node/4026
Here's a DC streetcar without wires: http://www.shorpy.com/node/6253
The point is, DC could be installing a system right now that uses an in ground motive system (which is what we used to have) or a battery system like in several European cities.
most recent anonymous person who is indistinguishable from all the other anonymous rabble: that picture of king street is nice and all, but you will alert the readers that that is not just a trolley wire, but many other wires (telephone, telegraph) as well, right? because any time someone trots out a picture like that as an example of the living hell that they feel will come from the pair of overhead wires that would power the H street streetcar is exaggerating the visual impact—greatly.
And if you wade though this, you'll be fully up to date on wireless possibilities and see a decent before/after photo of what streetcar wires (and their hundreds of poles) do to the view.
http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/circulars/ec058/15_02_Swanson.pdf
Of course King Street includes all types of wiring. What? You think PEPCO is going to sit quietly on the sidelines once streetcar wires are allowed? No. They'll say they want just a little overhead wire space too. They'll get it because after all what's a little more wire. Before you know it, you'll have recreated a problem solved 100 years ago.
I've sat through meetings where DC residents beg PEPCO to underground the wires they have in their alley. PEPCO officials literally laughed at them. And they were muckety-muck Georgetown residents who usually get their way, not laughed at.
Don't be hatin' on the H street planters! Would you prefer an empty tree box filled with garbage? Maybe you haters should adopt one and plant some decent plants in them. They will be gone when the street work is finished and new trees planted in their place. So maybe 2-3 years?
Anonymous wrote: "Any advanced city in the beginning of the 20th century passed laws to underground their wires because of aesthetics and safety."
Really?!? So, Paris, Vienna, Prague, Brussels, Amsterdam, Munich, Zurich, Barcelona, Milan, Lyon, Dublin, Toronto, Melbourne, Portland, Boston etc. are all not "advanced cities?" Because all of those cities, and literally hundreds more, use overhead wires for their streetcars.
Which gets to your second misstatement: "The point is, DC could be installing a system right now that uses an in ground motive system (which is what we used to have) or a battery system like in several European cities."
Only two cities use such a system: Bordeaux, and the vast majority of its system uses overhead wires, and Nice, which uses overhead wires everywhere but two very short stretches. Plus, Brodeaux just had snow for the fist time in a long time this winter and it wreaked havoc on the portion of their system using ground contact. Plus, use the Bordeaux system here, and the salt water on our streets in the winter will quickly electrocute a few unfortunate pedestrians. Not that that matters to the anti-streetcar crowd; most of them drive everywhere. Plus, Alstom, the maker of the Bordeaux system, has clealry said, probably for the reason I cite above, that they do not want to sell that system in North America. Plus, the Alstom system is proprietary, meaning that we would be stuck with sole source contracts form one vendor.
The anti-streetcar crowd should be honest and just say they are anti-streetcar rather than floating misleading statements meant to confuse the issue.
It will end at Union Station via a viaduct cut into the Hopscotch Bridge and will go under the Amtrak lines and end at 1st NE...
Connecting the streetcars via a tunnel cut into the Hopscotch bridge would require entering the Amtrak parking garage beneath what was once Delaware Avenue NE: http://tinyurl.com/yd7fyms. This would most certainly require closure of 2nd Street NE, which has an abundance of obvious ramifications.
Here is the plan on which we should make our decisions:
http://ddot.washingtondc.gov/ddot/cwp/view,a,1250,q
Plans to connect the H Street line to Union Station are nothing more than plans, a term that has a more tentative connotation in the parlance of urban planning.
The District is intent on establishing Union Station as an intermodal transportation hub. Chip Akridge is intent on using his air rights to develop a $1B mixed use project that would connect to the transportation hub. But nobody has figured out exactly how the whole thing would work...until they do, any plans for interconnecting the streetcar and Union Station will be on hold.
I must confess, I find this debate very interesting. The issue of street cars on H Street is not new. Both ANC 6A and 6B have been working very hard over the last four years to include the street cars in the H Street Streetscape project. That being said, there clearly seems to be two sides to the overhead wires. I think that Councilmember Wells’ efforts to introduce legislation to resolve the issue is an important step. Until the legal issue of whether wires are permissible or not is decided – the debate on the use of wires is slightly academic.
A compromise solution would be to prohibit street car wires in historic districts and on any street where the wires would obstruct a direct view of the U.S Capitol. That would address many of the concerns of the historic preservationists while allowing the street cars to be installed. While I am not an expert, anx based on what I have heard, today’s street cars powered by overhead wires can be combined with battery power to create a mass transit option that can use wires where allowed then switch to battery power when required. From an economic model standpoint, it is in the best interest of any company introducing alterative power sources to be able to smartly retrofit existing streetcars to gain potential sales. The installed base of streetcars using overhead wires is much larger than the streetcars not using overhead wires. DDOT has stated this fact many times and it seems to fall on deaf ears for those that are advocating a wire-free alternative.
I have approached CHRS on this compromise and their initial response is to soundly reject any compromise that would allow street car wires anywhere in the city – historic district or not. That is a short-sided approach. While I would welcome a wireless streetcar alterative, I would not be in favor of such an approach if it delayed the implementation of streetcars for years. And again, based on DDOT statements, the current underground options are proprietary (and very expensive) and untested in diverse climates (where snow is a regular occurrence). Based on the inflexibility of CHRS, I have come to the conclusion that demanding the use of technology that is both expensive and untested is really an argument against streetcars.
ANC 6A recently adopted a resolution that supports the use of wires to power street cars. I think that is a very sound decision as it will allow the DC government to capitalize on federal funding to implement streetcars today. In this case, a bird in hand is better than two in the bush. If CHRS and the Committee of 100 on the Federal City would be willing to compromise and support legislation to that prohibits streetcar wires in historic districts as well as streets that have direct views of the U.S. Capitol, the city as a whole could move forward united in the desire to provide streetcars for our city.
Also, while the initial streetcar plans had the line terminating on 3rd and H Streets, DDOT has since stated at public meetings, the H Street streetcar will terminate in Union Station. This will create a true inter-modal mass transit solution that will allow residents to take Metro to Union Station and then switch to the streetcar to enjoy many of the new business on H Street. Regards, Joe Fengler
I agree with the general hybrid system (overhead wires with battery power where appropriate), but this comment thread does bring up one good point.
IMHO, any overhead wire exception should be for powering the streetcar system and the streetcar system alone. Streetcar wires can be easily removed at some point in the future, not so with Pepco/Comcast/Verizon/etc.
We need to be careful that H St and DC writ large does not start to look like my alley in Old City/NNE/SoFlo (where there are so many wires it looks like someone dumped a bowl of pasta on the poles).
Also, while the initial streetcar plans had the line terminating on 3rd and H Streets, DDOT has since stated at public meetings, the H Street streetcar will terminate in Union Station. This will create a true inter-modal mass transit solution that will allow residents to take Metro to Union Station and then switch to the streetcar to enjoy many of the new business on H Street
I am aware that DDOT has publicly indicated the streetcar will terminate in Union Station. But everyone's scratching their heads at this point...
I agree, there is a cloud of mystery around the plans to get the street car into Union Station. However, that should be a question at the next streetcar meeting. Here is the announcement from Drew and Kelvin for the next meeting:
ANC 5B, 6A and 6C will be sponsoring a community meeting at Wheatley
Elementary School, 1299 Neal St NE on Tuesday April 20th at 6:30 pm to
discuss DDOT's latest plans for the H Street/Benning Road Streetcar
line. Come find out the latest operating schedules, plans for
powering the streetcars and connecting them to existing public
transportation hubs.
The following city officials will be attendance:
Gabe Klein, District Department of Transportation Director
Scott Kubly, Streetcar Project Manager
Harry Thomas, Jr. Councilmember, Ward 5
Tommy Wells, Councilmember, Ward 6
Everyone is welcome! Hope to see you there.
Sincerely,
Kelvin Robinson, Chair ANC 6A
Drew Ronneberg, Commissioner 6A02
Overhead wires already exist: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4030/4493036416_5a6340f8af.jpg
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