A look at what's going on in Trinidad, on H Street, and in the larger area north of Capitol Hill.
Friday, November 12, 2010
New Windows
12th and H.
26 comments:
@HStreetDC
said...
This is why H Street needs historic district designation. To stop blight like this. A handsome historic facade was destroyed. It didn't have to be but there was no way to stop it.
The proposal for an H Street Historic District is NOT the same as that in the Capitol Hill Historic District. It would be a "commercial historic district" which has different rules and allows much broader latitude in building design and materials. We won't get stuck with requirements for period-appropriate restorations. No Barracks Row, no Old Town, no Georgetown. This type of historic district allows contemporary architecture and unusual designs as long as they are compatible with the overall ambiance of the corridor. There would be design "guidelines" that would prevent suburban-style monstrosities, garish lighting, cheap materials, or buildings that detracted from the continuity of the street.
None of us wants a cookie-cutter village of look-alike reproduction Victorian facades, but we don't want developers buying the cheapest alternatives at Home Depot either. We can have interesting, creative buildings that maintain the unique character of H Street without allowing dreck to destroy the rhythm of the corridor.
I'm on board with preservation but I don't see anything objectionable about the window. I am livid that the mural is gone but that's another story. I may have to recreate that on my dining room wall.
Although I don't see much wrong with this picture, I do see your point as to where things can be headed ("cookie cutter"). Can you post some info for a solution. What are the steps involved on getting a Historic Designation?
If you find what has been done to alter a heretofore handsome building not objectionable, we don't have much to discuss. For comparison, look at the dry cleaners at 11th and H, redone with a facade grant, that retained the integrity of the original building while still updating it. The painted boarding over window opening, aka "murals," are still there, just overwhelmed by the new cheap pop-out commercial bays. The owner chose not to install new windows so the artwork has been preserved so to speak. AFAIK, the decision on a commercial historic district rests with DC's Historic Preservation Review Board. It requires some measure of support from property owners.
This is why H Street needs historic district designation. To stop blight like this. A handsome historic facade was destroyed. It didn't have to be but there was no way to stop it.
I thought this was parody at first. Others probably did as well. Usually, that means your argument isn't self-evident. Could you flesh it out a bit?
I walked by here the other night, and thought that the new windows look nice. (A lot less cheap-looking than the picture would lead you to believe)
I agree with your point in theory, but none of the new development on H St has been particularly offensive to me. It's pretty much universally been an improvement over what's already there.
Although I'm concerned about the height, even the developers of the new building on the site of the H St Connection seem interested in preserving the character of the neighborhood.
If we had multiple copies of the Capitol Hill Oasis popping up, I'd be concerned. However, for now, I think we shouldn't be putting up roadblocks for new businesses.
meh, connecting the bump-outs with a picture window looks ok to me. the unreplaced windows obviously need to be replaced but I hope its a work in progress. From the outside, it looks like the structure has been unchanged and the nice brick work has been preserved. It does look like the second floor windows were partially bricked over to fit those small barred windows but I'm willing to bet that "improvement" is at least 20 years old. I still don't see anything really objectionable other than the windows which have not yet been installed. And personal tastes aside, how has the historic nature of the building been harmed?
I think it's butt ugly. But Andrew says it looks better in person, so maybe the photo's misleading. I think it would look a lot nicer if they would just paint the trim of the windows to match the rest of the building.
I too think it's really ugly and garish compared to the existing architecture, at least from the picture. But pictures can be misleading, as others have noted; I'll give it a real-world look later today.
The question of including H Street in a historic district was the subject of an ANC6A ED&Z Committee meeting (chaired by Drew Ronneberg) three years or so ago; folks came in from the HPRB to explain the process, including the architectural survey that has to take place to determine whether there's really a historic character to be preserved and thus whether historic district status makes sense.
An interesting pro and con mentioned at that meeting:
(pro) the set of limits that historic district status would place on razing and rebuilding removes the incentive some owners have for holding H Street properties vacant for years in hope of the big payoff when someone buys a string of properties to put up a big building, which would be good for development of the street;
(con) much of the commercial building stock on H is pretty small, and attempts to e.g. merge adjacent structures, such as what just happened with the Red Palace, could run afoul of such limits.
If someone here is more familiar with the typical HPRB limitations, maybe they could comment further.
You want a historic district designation to stop blight? There will be no quicker way to halt all the progress that's taken place on H Street over the past several years than to force business owners into bureaucratic loop holes and restrictions a HD would entail.
You want to be sure buildings fit into the "overall ambiance of the corridor?" Which ambiance would that be? There is no overall theme as far as I can tell on H Street. Business fronts fit into all shapes, sizes and decor. Who would designate these guidelines? Who gets to say what is "garish" or "cheap?"
If you want H Street to be historic, then burn it to the ground like it was in the 60s. That's the history of this street. Otherwise allow it to grow in the fashion that it has. The fashion that, for the first time in nearly half a century, has brought new life into this section of town.
I think the new windows are a vast improvement from what was there before. However,its the FUGLY paint that needs an up date...To the ownwer of the building. There is grant money for facade improvement. Check with H Street main street,Good luck.
Richard Layman relayed a story a little while back of how he was trying to get historic building status for a building on H (I want to say it was one of the banks at 8th and H) and ran into opposition from an elderly black lady who grew up around here. Richard made a lot of good points about the quality of the architecture and the need to preserve it, but her counterpoint was that to her it was a "whites only" establishment growing up and all it held were awful memories of segregation.
Not sure what my point was, but her view did change my perspective.
I agree with eric. If Drew is allowed to push his historic district "agenda" it will scare away business growth on H street NE. If the commercial end fails, the residential area will fail. Then we can all watch our property values sink. Thanks Drew.
To Anon 5:18 The owner is out of luck on any available facade improvement grants now that he has totally screwed up the existing building. Unless he wants to use a grant to remove those pop-outs and replace them with appropriate windows. He'd have to also replace the front door and might have to change some of the other windows as well. The garish paint job at least diverts attention for a couple of minutes from the mess.
I don't really see what the big deal is. This is a commercial / retail building, right? Retail buildings need big windows so people can see the stuff for sale, etc.
It's not unreasonable for the owner to want to make that possible.
Be careful what you ask for with 'commercial historic district' classification.
Yes, it will likely cut down on suburban-type monstrosities.
But these groups can often become petty little dictatorships, where grudges against individual people win out over the common good.
And they do tend to cut down on interesting design.
So you may end up with less garishness.
But in it's place you will have bland, in order to not run afoul of the 'ambience police'.
Ah, Hillman, unfortunately, you like many other posters are reacting negatively to the "historic district" threat without recognizing the difference between that and a "commercial" historic district. My first reaction was pretty negative too. For all the good they do, they drive us nuts.
The value of a "commercial" historic district is that the property owners do NOT have to do this stuff. If they do however, they become eligible for all sorts of benefits. Grants, loans, tax advantage,etc, that can provide substantial economic benefit. It is an inducement, not a demand.
In the case of the building at 12th and H, the owner could just as easily have worked with a advisory board to install bay windows like the ones originally incorporated into the facade of this building rather than use the ones he slapped on. The cost would likely have been comparable, but he would have been able to get assistance and tax benefits. This provides an economic incentive and enhances the streetscape. It's a win-win for owners and communities.
Please learn more about the difference. The "commercial" historic district can make quality development more attractive while not quelching creativity. There are some photos and elevation sketches for buildings in a commercial historic district in Minnesota here: http://www.ci.faribault.mn.us/assets/c/cityoffaribaulthistoricdistrictguidelines.pdf Many of the storefronts had suffered the same type of abuse that we have seen on H Street. Alterations with inappropriate materials; out-of-scale windows, doors, and awnings; permastone or other siding applied over brick, poor signage, bad lighting, etc. This is typical of commercial corridors that have "hit the skids." Bulletproof carryouts, liquor stores, and check-cashing outlets don't care what they look like. When run down commercial areas are revitalized, new businesses value appearance, not just for their own establishments but for the area as a whole. If it looks good, it attracts better merchants. This is a major factor in successful economic development.
Sorry for the triple posting. The software said it didn't post, so I did it again. And then again when I got the same msg. Inked will take care of it when she has time.
But please pay attention to the difference between the historic districts that drive many of us crazy and the "commercial" historic district that could be a great development tool for H Street.
@hstreetdc, thank you for the post. Does DC participate in the difference between residential historic district and commercial historic district? Last I heard Drew (ANC guy) took this issue for HstNE to the historic preservation group in DC and they said it is all or nothing.
As I understand it, H Street wouldn't be eligible for a standard historic district because too many of the buildings were demolished or permanently altered from their original architecture by RLA, HSCDC or private owners, This would also make it silly to incorporate it into the Capitol Hill Historic District which has rules that would be from another planet for H Street.
A request for a commercial historic district would have to be approved by DC's Historic Preservation Review Board. This would give it the official status to allow property owners to apply for grants, tax advantages, etc. The application to HPRB would have to be supported by a majority of property owners. The only things that I'm aware of that have been taken to HPRB are some requests for protection for some individual buildings on H Street to prevent them from being razed and some individual landmarking of significant structures.
It is important to remember that the property owners can use the advantages but do NOT have to. They could still do something horrible and tacky to their own property but they forgo the financial advantages that they could receive by doing something that would benefit the corridor. Yeah, I know that "tacky" is subjective, but it's like pornography. Can't define it, but we all know it when we see it.
26 comments:
This is why H Street needs historic district designation. To stop blight like this. A handsome historic facade was destroyed. It didn't have to be but there was no way to stop it.
The proposal for an H Street Historic District is NOT the same as that in the Capitol Hill Historic District. It would be a "commercial historic district" which has different rules and allows much broader latitude in building design and materials. We won't get stuck with requirements for period-appropriate restorations. No Barracks Row, no Old Town, no Georgetown.
This type of historic district allows contemporary architecture and unusual designs as long as they are compatible with the overall ambiance of the corridor. There would be design "guidelines" that would prevent suburban-style monstrosities, garish lighting, cheap materials, or buildings that detracted from the continuity of the street.
None of us wants a cookie-cutter village of look-alike reproduction Victorian facades, but we don't want developers buying the cheapest alternatives at Home Depot either. We can have interesting, creative buildings that maintain the unique character of H Street without allowing dreck to destroy the rhythm of the corridor.
I see nothing wrong with it.
I'm on board with preservation but I don't see anything objectionable about the window. I am livid that the mural is gone but that's another story. I may have to recreate that on my dining room wall.
@HstreetDC-
Although I don't see much wrong with this picture, I do see your point as to where things can be headed ("cookie cutter"). Can you post some info for a solution. What are the steps involved on getting a Historic Designation?
i am poo, and i approve. as such, all is well in the world.
that is all.
If you find what has been done to alter a heretofore handsome building not objectionable, we don't have much to discuss. For comparison, look at the dry cleaners at 11th and H, redone with a facade grant, that retained the integrity of the original building while still updating it.
The painted boarding over window opening, aka "murals," are still there, just overwhelmed by the new cheap pop-out commercial bays. The owner chose not to install new windows so the artwork has been preserved so to speak.
AFAIK, the decision on a commercial historic district rests with DC's Historic Preservation Review Board. It requires some measure of support from property owners.
@HStreetDC:
This is why H Street needs historic district designation. To stop blight like this. A handsome historic facade was destroyed. It didn't have to be but there was no way to stop it.
I thought this was parody at first. Others probably did as well. Usually, that means your argument isn't self-evident. Could you flesh it out a bit?
I walked by here the other night, and thought that the new windows look nice. (A lot less cheap-looking than the picture would lead you to believe)
I agree with your point in theory, but none of the new development on H St has been particularly offensive to me. It's pretty much universally been an improvement over what's already there.
Although I'm concerned about the height, even the developers of the new building on the site of the H St Connection seem interested in preserving the character of the neighborhood.
If we had multiple copies of the Capitol Hill Oasis popping up, I'd be concerned. However, for now, I think we shouldn't be putting up roadblocks for new businesses.
meh, connecting the bump-outs with a picture window looks ok to me. the unreplaced windows obviously need to be replaced but I hope its a work in progress. From the outside, it looks like the structure has been unchanged and the nice brick work has been preserved. It does look like the second floor windows were partially bricked over to fit those small barred windows but I'm willing to bet that "improvement" is at least 20 years old. I still don't see anything really objectionable other than the windows which have not yet been installed. And personal tastes aside, how has the historic nature of the building been harmed?
ya'll need to eat a freakin fish sandwich and relax
I think it's butt ugly. But Andrew says it looks better in person, so maybe the photo's misleading.
I think it would look a lot nicer if they would just paint the trim of the windows to match the rest of the building.
I too think it's really ugly and garish compared to the existing architecture, at least from the picture. But pictures can be misleading, as others have noted; I'll give it a real-world look later today.
The question of including H Street in a historic district was the subject of an ANC6A ED&Z Committee meeting (chaired by Drew Ronneberg) three years or so ago; folks came in from the HPRB to explain the process, including the architectural survey that has to take place to determine whether there's really a historic character to be preserved and thus whether historic district status makes sense.
An interesting pro and con mentioned at that meeting:
(pro) the set of limits that historic district status would place on razing and rebuilding removes the incentive some owners have for holding H Street properties vacant for years in hope of the big payoff when someone buys a string of properties to put up a big building, which would be good for development of the street;
(con) much of the commercial building stock on H is pretty small, and attempts to e.g. merge adjacent structures, such as what just happened with the Red Palace, could run afoul of such limits.
If someone here is more familiar with the typical HPRB limitations, maybe they could comment further.
You want a historic district designation to stop blight? There will be no quicker way to halt all the progress that's taken place on H Street over the past several years than to force business owners into bureaucratic loop holes and restrictions a HD would entail.
You want to be sure buildings fit into the "overall ambiance of the corridor?" Which ambiance would that be? There is no overall theme as far as I can tell on H Street. Business fronts fit into all shapes, sizes and decor. Who would designate these guidelines? Who gets to say what is "garish" or "cheap?"
If you want H Street to be historic, then burn it to the ground like it was in the 60s. That's the history of this street. Otherwise allow it to grow in the fashion that it has. The fashion that, for the first time in nearly half a century, has brought new life into this section of town.
I think the new windows are a vast improvement from what was there before. However,its the FUGLY paint that needs an up date...To the ownwer of the building. There is grant money for facade improvement. Check with H Street main street,Good luck.
Richard Layman relayed a story a little while back of how he was trying to get historic building status for a building on H (I want to say it was one of the banks at 8th and H) and ran into opposition from an elderly black lady who grew up around here. Richard made a lot of good points about the quality of the architecture and the need to preserve it, but her counterpoint was that to her it was a "whites only" establishment growing up and all it held were awful memories of segregation.
Not sure what my point was, but her view did change my perspective.
I just can't believe they took out the "$1 ATM"
What is this building slated to be?
I agree with eric. If Drew is allowed to push his historic district "agenda" it will scare away business growth on H street NE. If the commercial end fails, the residential area will fail. Then we can all watch our property values sink. Thanks Drew.
To Anon 5:18
The owner is out of luck on any available facade improvement grants now that he has totally screwed up the existing building. Unless he wants to use a grant to remove those pop-outs and replace them with appropriate windows. He'd have to also replace the front door and might have to change some of the other windows as well.
The garish paint job at least diverts attention for a couple of minutes from the mess.
I don't really see what the big deal is. This is a commercial / retail building, right? Retail buildings need big windows so people can see the stuff for sale, etc.
It's not unreasonable for the owner to want to make that possible.
Be careful what you ask for with 'commercial historic district' classification.
Yes, it will likely cut down on suburban-type monstrosities.
But these groups can often become petty little dictatorships, where grudges against individual people win out over the common good.
And they do tend to cut down on interesting design.
So you may end up with less garishness.
But in it's place you will have bland, in order to not run afoul of the 'ambience police'.
And to me, bland is more offensive than garish.
Ah, Hillman, unfortunately, you like many other posters are reacting negatively to the "historic district" threat without recognizing the difference between that and a "commercial" historic district. My first reaction was pretty negative too.
For all the good they do, they drive us nuts.
The value of a "commercial" historic district is that the property owners do NOT have to do this stuff. If they do however, they become eligible for all sorts of benefits. Grants, loans, tax advantage,etc, that can provide substantial economic benefit. It is an inducement, not a demand.
In the case of the building at 12th and H, the owner could just as easily have worked with a advisory board to install bay windows like the ones originally incorporated into the facade of this building rather than use the ones he slapped on. The cost would likely have been comparable, but he would have been able to get assistance and tax benefits. This provides an economic incentive and enhances the streetscape. It's a win-win for owners and communities.
Please learn more about the difference. The "commercial" historic district can make quality development more attractive while not quelching creativity.
There are some photos and elevation sketches for buildings in a commercial historic district in Minnesota here: http://www.ci.faribault.mn.us/assets/c/cityoffaribaulthistoricdistrictguidelines.pdf
Many of the storefronts had suffered the same type of abuse that we have seen on H Street. Alterations with inappropriate materials; out-of-scale windows, doors, and awnings; permastone or other siding applied over brick, poor signage, bad lighting, etc.
This is typical of commercial corridors that have "hit the skids." Bulletproof carryouts, liquor stores, and check-cashing outlets don't care what they look like.
When run down commercial areas are revitalized, new businesses value appearance, not just for their own establishments but for the area as a whole. If it looks good, it attracts better merchants.
This is a major factor in successful economic development.
Ah, Hillman, ..... Oh wait. It appears that I'm being redundant. :-)
That post would have been only 1/3 as effective if it had been posted once.
Sorry for the triple posting. The software said it didn't post, so I did it again. And then again when I got the same msg.
Inked will take care of it when she has time.
But please pay attention to the difference between the historic districts that drive many of us crazy and the "commercial" historic district that could be a great development tool for H Street.
@hstreetdc, thank you for the post. Does DC participate in the difference between residential historic district and commercial historic district? Last I heard Drew (ANC guy) took this issue for HstNE to the historic preservation group in DC and they said it is all or nothing.
As I understand it, H Street wouldn't be eligible for a standard historic district because too many of the buildings were demolished or permanently altered from their original architecture by RLA, HSCDC or private owners, This would also make it silly to incorporate it into the Capitol Hill Historic District which has rules that would be from another planet for H Street.
A request for a commercial historic district would have to be approved by DC's Historic Preservation Review Board. This would give it the official status to allow property owners to apply for grants, tax advantages, etc. The application to HPRB would have to be supported by a majority of property owners.
The only things that I'm aware of that have been taken to HPRB are some requests for protection for some individual buildings on H Street to prevent them from being razed and some individual landmarking of significant structures.
It is important to remember that the property owners can use the advantages but do NOT have to. They could still do something horrible and tacky to their own property but they forgo the financial advantages that they could receive by doing something that would benefit the corridor.
Yeah, I know that "tacky" is subjective, but it's like pornography. Can't define it, but we all know it when we see it.
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